Carré Mme. Mathilde Lucie alias Victoire
KV 2/926 actually running up to KV 2/936
culminating to 2048 pages
This document differs quite - compared to most documents dealt on our Website.
Normally, I oppose the way matters had been dealt with in British Secret Service files within the KV 2/xxx series.
This time matters are different.
Before I initiated this htm (html) webpage, I considered whether it should be prepared as a PDF file.
After some considerations, I chose the html format, as this allows us to widely use bookmarks (Dutch: bladwijzers).
This technique allows us to jump instantly form one side of a document to another part of it. This technique should be considered being for your comfort.
For whatever reason, I previously came across Hugo Enst Bleicher's file series: KV 2/164 - KV 2/166 & KV 2/2127; all related to PF 600861
Annoying, quite often is, the apparent lack of understanding of the German organisational matters.
They speak about 'Gestapo' which regularly was the Geheime Staatspolizei; but was regularly (legally) not acting outside the Germany territory.
They apparently didn't know that they dealt with the S.D. (Sicherheitsdienst) belonging to Amt IV, as this Amt, or R.S.H.A. dealt mainly with Ausland (Foreign) matters. Albeit, sometimes fuzzy matters concerned also at Amt III or that like (Amt V).
However, our current story starts with in France. We have to follow the lines expressed (told by Victoire; after she arrived after say, 24th February 1942, in London.
Page initiated: 10 January 2021
Current status: 4 February 2021
Please notice: that as all my work's purpose is for studying purposes only!
Therefore: do not multiply its content - as on some Crown Copyright is still valid
Part: 1 (15.1'21)
Part : 2 (18.1'21)
Part : 3 (21.1'21)
Part : 4 (27.1'21) This huge file series, unexpectedly brought some materials which, when it was known need to be placed at the beginning of this very comprehensive document series. I have found a place where it is matching to already existing materials. Near to the end of Chapter 4 I made notice of our findings and attached additional links. I also introduced 'return' hyperlinks designated, for example: Ureturn, or Yreturn.
Proceeding at a new website: Carré - Lucas - Brutus (4.2'21)*
* At the very end of this quite extensive recent webpage, I thought - that we have reached a sound conclusion; albeit, that still the file series KV 2/932 ... KV 936 were remaining open. I considered it essential to continue studying the successive file number KV 2/932. This proved to contain striking information, which matches perfectly with the story and facts covered on this webpage.
It is therefore essential, to go into the very many historical facts c.q. contexts. We cannot soundly understand the backgrounds encountered on this website, when we do not have an realistic idea about what have been played in France. We know already that Mathilde Lucie Carré was imprisoned in England, from 1st July 1942 up to after the end of the hostilities on the European Continent, in May 1945; but life went on, also in France, with the implications due to the World War II.
My normal concept of approach changed after I searched on Google yesterday - and in particular considered, of course, Wikipedia - the superb source of information.
Let us first reproduce what I found there:
My first reaction on this apparently interesting contribution was:
(Nonsense, because she arrived about 24th February 1942 in London accompanied with Lucas and was ultimately imprisoned on 1st July 1942; our current document is just focussing on this very aspect, first)
In my perception, it does make sense, to jump in with what I already have derived from my forgoing commitment with this very file series; albeit that I have to admit that I have not studied all files, yet.
But, as usually for bureaucrats, they repeat themselves often time and again, and I became a bit bored by transcribing matters time and again without increasing my knowledge, really.
This just was triggering me to approach Wikipedia.
I could have done it earlier but, for whatever reason, I did not.
Just at the citation needed (A) my first pointer (Bladwijzer) of this file is directing you onto it.
It is apparent that the editor of this, quite good contribution, has not been acquainted with the real circumstances (B)
Pierre de Vomécourt's alias was Lucas; he (the Wikipedia article author) surely would have known this - when he have had knowledge of the huge file series KV 2/926 - KV 2/936.
We are extensively going into Mathilde Lucie Carré's war-time years between 18 November 1941 and 1st July 1942; maybe thereafter as well.
Let me start with the not yet reproduced on Wikipedia and beyond
Madame Mathilde Lucie Carré
source: KV 2/926 page 28
Why not accessing an intriguing aspect (story) where we encounter briefly what played on the background of this story.
KV 2/933-1, page 37
Carré Mathilde Lucie née Belard
KV 2/931-2, page 71
In my my perception a more realistic picture of Mathilde Lucie Carré (nee Belard)
A recent finding (25th January 2021) in file volume 7 (KV 2/931-2, page 71) , is likely lifting quite some queries on Victoire personally; than being provided by the foregoing Wikipedia reference.
(X) (Xreturn) (G3) (G3return)
Full Name: Mathilde Lucie Carré (nee Berland)
Aliases: Maitena Barrel (non-de-plume)
Margarite de Roche
Code names: La Chatte (see next A1)
Victoire (used mainly in the very file)
Born: 30.6.1908 at Creusot, Saone et Loire, France.
Father: Arsene Belard, born 1886
Mother Nee Jean Gros, born 1886
Married 18.5.1933 Maurice Henri Claude Carré
Height: 5' 4'' = ca. 1.62 m
Hair: Dark Brown
Nose: Slightly turned up
Distinguishing Features: Two teeth missing at side.
but never wears glasses, except for reading, when she puts the paper practically up to her eyes.
Victoire's father was by profession an engineer. She was the eldest child of her parents, and had one brother, Pierre Belard. On the outbreak of war (1914-1918) she went to live with her grand-parents and aunts. Her father meanwhile fought throughout the war with great distinction and received the Legion d'Honneur and the Croix de Guerre. She did not receive any education until she was 14, when she was sent to the Lycee Jeanne d'Arc at Orleans. At the age of 16 she moved to the Lycee Victor Hugo, Paris. There she studied and maintains that she was unhappy because she did not react well to discipline and supervision. She studied in Paris for four years and took a degrees in science, mathematics philosophy and law. (AOB, is this really true?) At the age of 20 she started to study nursing in Paris, and it is worth noting that she was particularly interested in psychological cases and psychiatry. Although her education her education started late, she has undoubtedly has a flair for certain things, among them literary work, and at the age of 24 (a year before she married she took up writing and secretarial work as a profession: she did a certain amount of writing for the papers. It is probably of no interest, but Victoire has always emphasised that she lived entirely for the moment, and the various events of her life were dictated by no kind of rational planning on her part. She maintained, for example, that when she married she chose her husband entirely by cutting cards. This story is proably told in order to enable her to emphasise how many different people wished to marry her, but it does demonstrate her life and the absence of any deep-rooted loyalty.
KV 2/931-2, page 72
She married on the 18th May, 1933, Maurice Henri Claude Carré, who had started life as a professional soldier, but had later taken up education as a career. The majority of their married life was spent in French North Africa, where she conceived a liking for Arabs. He was at this time Director of European and Arab Schools in Southern Algeria. Victoire maintains that she was faithful to her husband in spite of the very many defects in his character, the worst of which appears to have been that he did not pay her sufficient attention. Her life from the time she was married to the outbreak seems to have been without incident, except that se gradually became more and disillusioned about her husband, who shortly before the war became tired of his profession and reverted to his old career, and went to an Ecole de Guerre (Reserve).
On the outbreak of war (4th September 1939) Victoire's husband had the opportunity of going either to the Western Front or Syria. He chose Syria (he later became a Staff Officer at Beirut), and for this Victoire says she never forgave him, because he obviously wished to avoid any active participation in the war, whereas she was apparently full of fire and wanted to get at the enemy. She therefore left North Africa when her husband departed and proceeded to Paris, where she joined "L'Union des Femmes de France" and took a course of 80 days in war-time nursing. This course finished on the first May, 1940, and eventually only three (of whom she was one) of 80 candidates went off to the hospital at Beauvais. It may be worth recording that her friends during this part of her career were Dr. Raymond Legros (a French doctor who some time before the war resided in Scotland for two years), Dr. Pierre Vernette (a surgeon residing at 46, Rue St. Honoré, Paris and a woman of doubtful morals called Jane Smiro.
Victoire has written an account of her experiences during the Battle of France which do not appear to have any intelligence interest beyond the fact that during the retreat she came into contact, just before the fall of Paris, with two old friends who subsequently were René and Oncle Marco of the Walenty organisation (KV 2/72-KV 2/73). On the 18th June, 1940, she had arrived at Poitiers, and at the Armistice was in a chateau near Auch, 40 kilometres south-west of Toulouse. her associates at this time were am engineer named Camille Riy from Lyon, a lieutenant in the 1st Regiment of Engineers called Jean Mercieaux and a man Guitard.
Her father was taken prisoner, but subsequently released because of his age. her husband all this time was in Syria taking no active part in the war. In due course he came back from Syria/ At the end of October (1940) she met him and says that she urged him to join the forces of General de Gaulle, and was so disgusted at his apathy that she decided finally to leave him. She did not, however, tell him this, but resorted to a characteristic act of treachery which consisted in telling him to stay with her parents where she would join him, and then going off to Paris herself without saying anything.
Victoire's early history has not been examined in great detail, but from what she has herself written there seems to be → (page 73)
KV 2/931-2, page 73
no doubt that she displayed, even before the war, all the same defects of character that appeared later when she became involved in Intelligence matters. her character will emerge (develop) as the story progresses, but a sketch of it may be useful here.
She is undoubtedly intelligent and certainly selfish and self-centred. With no extraordinary powers of attraction, she has managed throughout her life to attract a great deal of attention and limelight by a combination of vanity (arrogance), cunning (calculating), ruthlessness (mercilessness) and complete absence of deep-rooted loyalty emotions. One searches for signs of genuine feeling and the only stable thing in her life appears to be her love for her mother, for which, however, we have her own word. The outstanding point about her is her complete lack of ordinary human understanding and sympathy, and her inability to judge any person or problem except in relation to herself. The number of people for whom she has expressed great affection and subsequently turned against testifies to this. It can also be stated, without being unfair to her, that the most important things outside her own life pale into insignificance beside the unimportant details of her private affairs. This when she and Lucas were in England and great things were afoot (occurring), her conversation was confined almost exclusively to food, flowers and the favours (or lack of them) shown to her. When the news of Lucas' arrest came through, it concerned her vastly (much) less than unimportant details about the way she was treated.
She is fundamentally vicious (bitter), spiteful and amoral. Her redeeming (positive) features are her intelligence, her culture (she has a very wide range of knowledge), her industry (if, and only if, it serves her immediate ends) and her charm and conversational abilities, best expressed by the French word "spirituelle".
(AOB, all this does not constitute a legal ground - as to diminish her human rights during imprisonment; because such characters are existing everywhere, be in England, or in the world)
KV 2/931-3, page 22 + 23 (briefly about Lucas, Benoit Miklos and Victoire)
Victoire and Lucas
A. Personal particulars about Lucas, and background. (K4) (K4return)
Please read the above content yourself
The chief members of his organisation with whom we (S.O.E.) are concerned were Roger (Roger Cottin) and Benoit (B.H. Cowburn). He was also in contact with a sub-agent called Noel, who introduced him to Miklos (well respect French advocate), who towards the end of 1941 was worried about his resistance group, as he suspected that the Germans were after him and he wanted to hand his organisation over to someone who could make good use of it. Lukas met Miklos with Noel on Christmas Day, and in discussion, and Miklos told him about the Walenty organisation now being run by Victoire. It was arranged that Miklos should fix up a meeting when Lucas could meet Victoire.
B. Initial meeting between Victoire and Lucas.
The tie-up started on December 26th. At the outset there is a distinct conflict of evidence. Victoire's story, as encountered by her on her arrival in England, was that she, the unwilling tool of the Germans, who had come into contact with Lucas in such a way that the Germans knew her every move, had later redeemed (converted) herself by saving from their clutches. It was always seemed more than possible that she betrayed Lucas voluntary. If this is so it was an act of betrayal which there was not a shadow of excuse and it would be the main charge against her. Therefore the circumstances of their first become all-important.
However, our Survey has to continue on: Victoire and Lucas
(A1) (Q7) (Q7return) (P16) ↓↓ (P16return) (J25) (J25return) (O33) ↓↓ (O33return)
© M.Davic Pour LÉxpress
Some part of Victoire's: Abwehr Aktenkarte (Karteikarte?)
Name: Carré Deckname (alias) La Chat
Vorname: Mathilde Lucia (Lucie)
geboren: 30.6.1908 in Creusot
wohnhaft: Paris 20 rue Cortot
Staatsangehörigkeit (St.A.) Französin (French)
Anfrage and Abwehr (Abw.): 6956 1.42 (January 1942) IIIF (AOB, very interesting, because it tells us, nowehere noticed within the British files: That she was engaged at Abwehr section III F = Counter-Espionage!)
Nr. Abwehr (her Abwehr service-number) 999/42g (g stood probably for Geheim)
Wurde in Spionage-Fall (Unternehmen) "Nobel" angefragt.
Verbindung abgebrochen. (After Victoire's arrest, was over the S.O.E. transmitter sent a final message, of which's content they apparently have given a thought. Likely biting the Germans concerned a bit)
AOB: we may thus derive from this notice: - that the following interlude (story) constituted the begin of Operation "Nobel II". We will later learn that the British Secret Services considered that after Victoire had been put in the Aylesbury Prison (Goal), that the S.O.E. controlled transmitter keeping in touch with the Abwehr counter station, that this "play" was known on the German side as: "Nobel II".
quoting KV 2/926-1, page 46: (AOB, it starts becoming intriguing!)
I think that the D.G. (Director General) will be interested to see this file, as while you were away I acquainted him with the early stages of the affaire Lucas-Victoire.
Since that time we have been carrying on a triangular (exploiting DF-bearings on signals from France) handlings of the case with S.O.E. (M.I.6) that it would be unwise to allow Victoire to return with Lucas to France. I have myself seen both the the principal characters, and feel that whereas Lucas may have a future career with S.O.E. in France, Victoire cannot in the long run be trusted. She is a highly intelligent woman but one who ?? be turned round in her allegiance remarkable easily. I cannot believe that the German will have failed to consider after the departure of Lucas and Victoire from France the possibility that while in London we should discover that Victoire was under control. This seems to be inevitable since they made the mistake of sending messages over Victoire’s wireless station in Paris of which both she and Lucas were unaware. Once we got down to the questioning of these two persons we must have discovered this fact and thereby have discovered the part Victoire was supposed to be playing for the Germans. These considerations seem to me to be overriding, but in addition we can find no real basis for Victoire’s loyalty to our cause.
The specifically M.I.5. interest in this matter relates to Victoire. We (M.I.6?) have decided to carry on communication with her former station in Paris for the purpose of covering the return of Lucas to France. We felt it important that we should take ?? into our confidence on this matter and seek her assistance, If she is not so involved and interested in the case she may go bad on us and we shall have a security case instead of a friendly agent.
It is for this reason that I feel that we should fall in with the suggestion which has been made to Mr. Harmer that we should carry our one-third share of the expenses in connection with running Victoire as an agent in this country. I am further also of the opinion that we should as far as possible control her ourselves. Her messages (Unternehmen Nobel II) will have to be passed through S.I.S. (M.I.6) channels but is unwise to have too many people in touch with her and confusing her as to exactly what is expected of her.
(AOB, The final paragraph is too much destroyed that I have skipped it. However, U.35 was in reality Mr. Ustinov, in my perception a dilatant, and a not too smart guy)
quoting KV 2/926-1, page 48:
Re: affair Lucas
A telegram has been received from Switzerland which accounts for the reception of a message from Lucas which was passed from Vichy (AOB, by then still in the French-Free-zone) to Geneva on or about 25th February (42), the contents of which message were, I believe, at any rate known to the Germans if not initiated by them.
I draw attention to the following points – in that message it was stated that a man named Benoit was being sent out via Spain in case anything happened to the sender, i.e. Lucas.
22nd March 1942
Copies to S.O.E. (F) (France?)
… AOB, (1) being skipped
“(ii) It is learned from Miklos, who recently had to flee from Occupied Zone, that there is positive proof that Lili, otherwise Micheline Carré also believed to be Victore, has been working for the Germans and is responsible for many arrests. Man I know as Lucas and who may be individual now in London, was introduced to me by a mutual friend. Later he called at my office and fulfilled formalities for obtaining package which had been forwarded for me from Lisbon’.
Quoting from KV 2/926-1, page 55:
Lucas - Victoire.
On 20.3.42 Mr. Green gave a dinner at which (names deleted as was usually done in an M.I.6 context) and I were present. During the evening fairly free criticism was expressed of Major Boddington (S.O.E.) and his service (S.O.E.) by not only Victoire but the representatives of the S.I.S. (Secret Intelligence Service, M.I.6) Lucas however defended Boddington, saying that he was known him for a considerable time and although it was true he did not always get on with people, he himself had no complaints to make. Lucas also defended the British by which I assume him to mean the British Service for whom he is working. He said that although the British suffered from a lack of imagination, yet on the whole he would rather work for them, than for any other people in the world, because they were more reliable. He did, however, express disagreement with the British view that no interference should be made into the political affairs in Europe He thought it essential that this country (Britain) should interest themselves in those affairs if we wished to retain any influence on the Continent after the war. (AOB, how true Lucas is!)
Lucas looked tired and thoughtful throughout the evening. It was the first time I had met him and he certainly made a very good impression on me/ The thing which at the end of the evening disturbed me more than anything else was the reason for his association with Victoire. They seemed such very different types and I cannot see what there is in her which would attract a man of his nature.
… My impression of Victoire increased as a result of the evenings talk. She spoke enthusiastically, and in my view completely genuinely, about the old days when she had been working with Walenty (KV 2/72; KV 2/73; PF 65363; Polish origin @ Brutus) and she told stories about him in a way which seemed to me be absolutely natural and assumed. She did not over drink on this occasion, but on the other hand she did in telling stories reveal a streak (line) of coarseness (thickness) which certainly in an English woman would be very unusual indeed.
During the evening I told her that I should be → (page 56) working with her on the wireless messages and she answered that she had every fault and was an impossible woman. She also told me that Lucas had told her that he took a favourable view of what she described as "Uncle Tom's family" (Mr MacIntosh), and this pleased her very much. She also told me that S.I.S. had recently changed her some money and without any fuss had given her a very much more favourable exchange than S.O.E., who had pretended they were doing her an immense favour. This she told me demonstrated the difference between the two (M.I.6) departments. I arranged to go and see her on Monday and fix up about the next messages. (On the German controlled "Nobel II" radio link") →
quoting KV 2/926-1, page 57:
Lucas - Victoire.
On the afternoon of 20.3.42 both Lucas and Victoire were interviewed by Mr. Green (S.I.S.), and myself (Mr. C.H. Harmer (M.I.5.) The discussion centred round the plan for deceiving the Germans during the two months that Lucas will be in France making his other arrangements.
Lucas asked whether we had received the complaint he had dictated about the treatment meted out to Victoire: we said we had not. He then told us the complaint was addressed to all departments concerned (S.I.S., S.O.E., M.I.5) and pointed out that since her arrival in England at least three different departments, if not more (maybe the Home Office), had interested themselves in Victoire's case and that the net result had been that no single department had assumed the responsibility for giving her the treatment she deserved. He said that he felt very strongly that Victoire should be handled by one service alone and that this service should be Mr. Green's (S.I.S. section of M.I.6). Victoire said that she had wished this all along and that everybody knew it. Lucas also said that she ought to be seen out in uniform with Polish officers in case the Germans have anyone watching her in this country, because they would think it extremely odd that she was treated in the way she had been.
Dealing with his to France Lucas said that since his arrival in this country the
general Staff appeared to have woken up to various things which they did not
seem to have considered before and in particular had decided that certain other
matters must take precedence to the schemes which he had prepared for blowing up
and so on. In consequence he was unable to take Victoire back with him but
he was only going over to France in the first instance for two months and said
that he had only accepted the new mission conditionally upon, first, Victoire
being properly treated in this country and being looked after, and second on his
being allowed to take her back with set up an information bureau for which she
was particularly well qualified. Victoire added that she
→ would not want to set up anything on the same scale as Walenty's organisation but she would like to run an organisation consisting of four or five people.
Neither Lucas nor Victoire asked directly whether these conditions were accepted by us and equally we did not make any definite statement one way or the other.
We had not, of course, been aware of Lucas' acceptance of his mission for S.O.E. being made conditionally and it would obviously have been injudicious at that stage to tell the parties that we were not in a position to agree to these conditions. The matter was therefore passed over and the discussion proceeded to the running of the transmitter during the next few weeks.
Lucas thought that the Germans would start to smell a rat soon; on the other hand he felt that if we managed to arrange to money question cleverly, we could prevent them from arresting Albert (?). This he explained was his greatest fear in the case because that man was taking all the risk while he was safe in England. Lucas thought that the way the money position should be handled was to pay reasonably small amounts straight away. It would thus be in the Germans' interest to keep the transmitter running as it is at present, in the hope of collecting the money as and when it was paid. Lucas, however, felt absolutely certain that at the end of the months the Germans would have seen through the whole affair and certainly neither he nor Victoire contemplated the running of the transmitter beyond a period sufficient to cover this return to France and his work there.
B.1.a. (Major T.A. Robertson's office) C.H. Harmer (Victoire's handling M.I.5 officer)
AOB, please be aware - that all these kinds of files series are actually in a reversed time order, thus with increasing PDF page numbers they run backwards in time!
KV 2/926-1, page 65
Lucas - Victoire.
At the meeting held at M.I.5 (at St. James?) on 18.3.42 it was definitely decided that S.O.E. should order Lucas to break (bring) the news to Victoire of her non return to France and that we, A.4. (S.I.S. M.I.6. or is it a sub-section of S.O.E., or maybe a sub-section of M.I.5. ?), should be later informed of the re-action of Victoire as well as of details of what Lucas had told Victoire of the future, as a guide to A.4. in backing up Lucas's story and in gaining Victoire's sympathy at our lunch party today 19.3.42.
At 7 p.m. last night 18.3.42 S.O.E. informed us, A.4., that that they were unable to persuade (forcing) Lucas to talk to Victoire on the lines laid down and therefore the whole onus (responsibility) of this difficult affair (which really is no concern of ours beyond a desire to help other interested sections) devolved on A.4.
We are greatly handicapped by the fact that we do not, know what S.O.E. had said to Lucas of vice versa, in this matter. All we are told is that Lucas is not satisfied, that he refuses to tell Victoire but will fall in with orders given by his chief regarding his mission alone to France.
While we may, I hope, persuade Victoire to agreeably accept the idea of her non return, how are we to know that all our efforts will not be neutralised by the future attitude of Lucas when Victoire returns to see him with the story we have told her.
I therefore consider consider that if we are to retain the sympathy of both partners, and achieve some success, we should see Lucas at once and discuss with him how we can best approach Victoire on his delicate matter which Lucas agrees is necessary but which he is not prepared to do himself.
KV 2/926-1, page 70
Lucas - Victore.
A meeting was held at St. James (M.I.5's headquarters) on 18.3.42 at which the following were present:-
Major Maurice Buckmaster
Mr. D.G. White
Mr. J.H. Mariott
Mr. C.B. Mills
Mr. C.H. Harmer (Victoire's case officer at M.I.5)
(Deleted name usually practised by M.I.6) S.I.S., was unable to attend on account of thickness.
The first matter discussed was the suggested plan for operating the transmitter (AOB, nowhere discussed in details, this transmitters was most likely brought in by Victoire and/or Lucas). This was accepted by Major Keswick on behalf of S.O.E., who said that he thought the plan would be more effective if Victoire were co-operating although in that event we must bear in mind the danger that she might interpolate a code word into one of the messages. Commander Dunderdale also accepted the plan and said that to guard against this danger we should keep two sets of traffic and paraphrase her suggested messages. Mr. White said that so far as we were concerned we would welcome her collaboration. With regard to the interest of the Poles in the matter, Commander Dunderdale said that he had every reason to suppose that they would support the scheme and it was arranged that they would be told.
The question which then arose was how the news should be broken to Victoire. S.O.E. representatives reported that Lucas had been told yesterday and had accepted in principle. he had also had made known to him the main details of the plan which he was thinking over. After a considerable amount of discussion it was decided that Lucas should be asked to break (bring) the news to Victoire and that at about the same time → (page 71)
KV 2/926-1, page 71
Mr. Green, on behalf of S.I.S., should also tell her. It was later arranged that Mr. Green would ask Victoire to have a lunch on the following day and talk to her at the same time. Major Boddington (S.O.E.) agreed to see Lucas later in the day and ring Mr. Green reporting on the result of his conversation. The question of what Victoire should be told about the future plans was discussed and it was agreed in principle that it would be wise to perpetrate (commit) a long term deception on her, namely, leading her to suppose that after the successful outcome of the Lucas affair we would endeavour to send her back to France or to Tangiers (Tanger)
The next question brought up was the disposal of Victoire. It was decided that at lunch on the following day she should be introduced to a nominee of Mr. White (M.I.5) (AOB, most likely meant: U.35 Mr. Ustinov; who owns a house in Gloustershire. In my perception, time and again, Mr. Ustinov wasn't a too smart person) who would be prepared to take her to stay for a few days in the country and that it would be arranged that this man would throw out an invitation for the weekend which she could accept or refuse (the latter she did) as she thought fit. Mr. White undertook to brief the man in question the same afternoon. Major Keswick (S.O.E.) reported that Lucas would be going away for a few days during the next week.
The message regarding Jeannine Pradier was then discussed at considerable length and Commander Dunderdale's (S.I.S.) suggestion that we ought to have her interrogated. Major Boddington (S.O.E.) explained the meaning of the telegram and ultimately it was arranged that the best way, in all the circumstances, of dealing with the situation would be for Boddington to suggest to Lucas that he asked Pradier to see him at the flat where we could listen to the conversation. In the first place, however, Major Boddington would find out whether Pradier had already been seen by Lucas and if not he would put the matter to Lucas and ask him to invite her to the flat. meanwhile we would keep as close a watch as possible on Pradier, having regard always to the necessity of not antagonising (irritating) Lucas.
AOB Apparently this document is not complete, as page 72 concerns a different subject; therefore it is skipped
KV 2/926-1, page 78
Interview with Victoire
On 17.3.42 I saw Victoire with F/Lt (as usually for M.I.6. the name being deleted) of S.I.S. I informed Captain .... that the meeting was going to take place and he was going to try and be present. However, before we went to see Victoire I received a telephone message to say that he was ill and could not attend.
The purpose of the visit was to see how Victoire was getting on with the report
which she had said she would make about the
in Paris and also to take her through the note I had made about our previous
interview. I left with her a copy of the paper attached which is an
edition of the complete report dated 9.3.42. (Victoire's
report as was all she wrote down, was in French language).
F/Lt. ... translated the entire note and Victoire made certain alterations and comments. These were as follows:-
1. Commandant Ische's wife and two children are in Wien (Vienna), not in France.
2. With regard to Borchers she said that the outstanding thing about this man was his extreme ambition.
3. With regard to Eckert she said that when he went on leave he had only interrogated a quarter of the members of the Walenty (KV 2/72 - KV 2/73, alias Brutus) organisation . She also said that the "L'affaire Nobel" was the name for the Lucas matter.
We have already come across "Nobel II"
© M.Davic Pour LÉxpress
AOB, considering the last line of: She also said that the "L'affaire Nobel"was the name for the Lucas matter. We have have reason to believe what Victoire stated was true. I consider that already some months before Victoire and Lucas managed to get onboard a British naval tuck about 15/16th February 1942, that this was happening was, albeit, unknown to Lucas facilitated by Abwehr officer Hugo Bleicher who was in charge of Victoire after her capture on 17th November 1941, when the Walenty organisation had been caught. He event about their escape from a Brittany beach in France will be dealt with in some details later.
Let us put it right:- Victoire was, in some way or another, operating on behalf (call it being controlled) by Bleicher's Abwehr III-F office; dealing with counter-espionage. And, Lucas together with Victoire should be 'German controlled' leave the beach, that both Victoire and Lucas' case carried the equal cover-name and this was "Nobel" Maybe another endeavour was run elsewhere, then it is possible that more precisely they added 'Roman II' onto the operational code name. As it had been designated: Spionagenfall "Nobel II". 'Verbindung abgebrochen' points at the fact that S.O.E. stopped communicating (with the Germans). Somewhere later, you will see that the Services discussed how their final message should be worded. We should think of somewhere in early July 1942.
4. With regard to Lt. Kaiser it would be more correct to say he had wavy, rather than curly, hair.
5. Bleicher (KV 2/164 - KV 2/166 & KV 2127 all with PF 800861) has a moustache. he was in peace time a representative of a firm manufacturing medical products at Hamburg. The number of the car at his disposal is not as stated in my previous note but TRM 2984.
6. Regarding her treatment after arrest, she drew attention to the fact that up to the night that Borcher got drunk she was never allowed to go out unescorted*; from that day she was given her liberty. She attributed this to the fact that this incident served to the create confidence in her.
* AOB: One may wonder, but at least in German occupied France, the German Abwehr but also some S.D. were allowing individuals captured but in some respect being cooperative, some form of freedom. Good examples being found in:
https://www.cdvandt.org/rote-kapelle-20-july'44.htm and https://www.cdvandt.org/kv-2-1971-pannwitz.htm and https://www.cdvandt.org/kv0202068-kent-sukolov.htm and https://www.cdvandt.org/kv-2-2074-trepper.htm
KV 2/926-1, page 80
Victoire then said that she had an idea to put forward. She realised that she was an embarrassment to everybody here, that we were all bored with her and had no use for her (AOB, Victoire's engagements with the German Abwehr she had told them openly in London, but an embarrassment it truly was). She also realised that she would not go back with Lucas to carry out the original project. He (Lucas) had told her that he was going to be disguised (camouflaged) and since he was not going back under his own identity, it was obvious to her that she could not show her face in Paris for a considerable time. her proposal was that if the Lucas affair had been satisfactorily dealt with, she should be sent to France to live with the Germans and then get them to send her to Tangier (Tanger) where she would work for the British. As she seemed to be boiling up for a real complaint we told her that we thought this was a very good idea and we would give it the most careful consideration.
Victoire also complained rather bitterly of the treatment she had received in this country and said she would never pardon it although she was still prepared top work as before. She drew attention to the fact that having lost all her clothes on the journey over, she had bought two new dresses in this country and the bills had been sent to her. She said that she did not think we could in this war be used to dealing with women agents, which she she could not understand because there had been many during the last war (1914-1918). She was sure that if she could get in touch with the Americans she would receive better treatment* and if we were not prepared to send her to Tangier (Tanger) or Morocco (Marocco) she would ask to be put in touch with the American authorities in London (AOB, a circumstance the Britain wanted to prevent desperately!!) She expressed a great desire to see Mr. Green (S.O.E. who generally did not oppose her), who she described as being the most understanding and intelligent man she had met in England (really?). Another thing about which she was being ignored by Lucas and his department (S.O.E.); she was never taken into their confidence to the slightest degree in connection with the plans they were continually discussing and this was also a cause of annoyance to her.
I left with the impression that she was → (page 81)
KV 2/926-1, page 81
discontented with her present position but that she realised quite well that she was going back on the original plan and that this would not be a very great shock to her when it was told her officially.
C.H. Harmer (her
guiding M.I.5 officer, who after all was not supporting her, but apparently was
KV 2/926-1, page 85 The following report is reflecting the fantasy of one of the Secret Service officers, the considerations should be regarded as nonsense! All in vain.
Lucas - Victoire
At the meeting held on 11.3.42 at Brigadiers Gubbings' office it was decided that a plan for the future operation of the Walenty transmitter (brought in to England by Victoire jointly with Lucas) should be prepared by Section V (M.I.6) and M.I.5. Since then the traffic from the date of the break-up, with a view to to sizing up the situation which must be covered by the proposed plan.
There is no doubt that had Victoire been examined carefully about the messages which were sent in that period it would have become very obvious that something had been seriously wrong. In the first place she professes ignorance of some of the messages, secondly there is the question of the acknowledgement of the money sent and thirdly, the explanation about the wireless set and codes which is totally inconsistent with the known facts. nevertheless, according to Victoire's plan of operation she was not herself doing neither the operating nor the cyphering, and she might have been able to get away with it by telling the Poles and British that on the break-up (17th November 1941 of the Walenty organisation) such chaos had resulted that it was very difficult to keep control, no records had been kept and also that she had not acknowledged through the radio the receipt of the 200,000 francs because the members of the organisation were getting resistive and she did not want to let them know that she had such large sum of money.
The problem which presents itself for the future operating of the transmitter is governed by several difficulties, The first that the Germans will have to assume that we have swallowed a very improbable story. The second is that if Lucas is to go back under different identity, and at a subsequent moment the Germans are to be told either that difficulties had prevented them returning, or that their aeroplane has crashed or such explanation, they are bound to be suspicious and will probably immediately arrest Albert and the other members of the Lucas organisation known to them. The second difficulty might avoid by Lucas forewarning Albert to go underground at the appropriate time, but this would itself give rise to a further difficulty - that the combination of the disappearance of Albert would almost certainly cause the Germans to be certain that their whole scheme had been exposed. They might be so much a question of speculation what the really thought that it is difficult to see how any good could come out of continuing to work it. A further possible difficulty is the fact that the transmitter is under the physical control of the Poles and their possession may complicate the position still further.
It seems to us, therefore, that to work out any long term plan for running the Walenty transmitter (brought in by Victoire and Lucas), knowing it to be controlled, is well nigh (imminent) possible. On the other hand we have considered very carefully the possibility of running it for a limited period and in the following plan we have various suggestions to make which we hope will avoid the difficulties mentioned above:- → (page 86, partially)
KV 2/926-1, page 86
first paragraph being skipped ....
The next stage should be for the Germans to be informed that in view of the magnitude of the projects stage should be for the Germans to be informed that in view of the magnitude of the projects in view and the organisation necessary both at this end and at their end, the arrival of Lucas and Victoire is to be postponed until the April moon. During the intervening period the details of the operation will be made known to the Germans and they will be that Lucas will precede Victoire by two of three days as he will be dropped by parachute with a W/T operator, preferably unoccupied France, that he should be on arrival by Albert and other members of the organisation that are wanted out of the way, that as soon as he has safely arrived he must proceed to a locality (which will not be specified) on the coast and report whether it is possible to land there the second part of agents, arms, explosives etc. They will be told that the sea operation is to leave as soon as Lucas informs them that everything is in order.
Meanwhile Lucas will presumably have returned to France and have warned Albert that when he receives instructions by the transmitter to proceed to a certain place and await Lucas, he is to make as if he to go there and disappear en route (AOB, because the W/T link on which they in France think to rely is not controlled by S.O.E. but the Germans). Assuming that the Germans are sufficiently impressed by the magnitude of the project, they must allow Albert to go and meet Lucas because they will not be able to run the risk of arresting Lucas until the second part part of the operation has been accomplished.
KV 2/926-1, page 87
Finally the German will be informed that Lucas has left (AOB, remember, that Victoire is knowingly still in England and the Germans thinking that she in in control from there!). From that moment Lucas will appear to have been lost. Urgent messages will be sent asking whether he has turned up and saying that Victoire's part of operation is all keyed up and anxious to start. On the other hand until a message has been received from Lucas saying that everything is in order, it will be obviously impossible to send Victoire by the route previously arranged.
The time will by this time be the end of April and if, as we suggest, the place where Lucas is supposed to be arriving is in the unoccupied zone, the Germans may waste several several or more weeks trying to find out what has happened to him and Albert there (AOB, wishful thinking!). During this period the transmitter can be kept working ostensibly trying to make alternative arrangements for Victoire to go back to France. Finally, was we will never receive a satisfactory message from Lucas, the German transmitter will be told that the project has collapsed in its initial stages, has got to be completely re-organised, and the transmitter can then be worked back on to an information basis and perhaps run for a certain period longer that basis.
The scheme suggested above is, of course, dependent on the actual plans made by S.O.E. for the return of Lucas. It has however been necessary to touch to a certain extent on these plans since it appears to us that the above is the only way in which the (S.O.E. controlled "Victoire's one) transmitter can be kept working on an apparently proper basis, in spite of the failure of Lucas and Victoire to put in a personal appearance in Paris.
KV 2/962-1, page 88
I called on Lucas this morning and showed him copies of three attached telegrams and asked him whether or not they were his messages undoctored by the Germans (AOB, at this time both Lucas and Victoire had just arrived in England after they were picked up form a Brittany beach). The copies shown to Lucas had no dates and no indication of origin.
(a) Two messages dated 20.2.42 (they arrived in London probably 17 à 18 February?) These were taken by Lucas' brother to Vichy and given to Colonel Schow (pronounced Scow).
(b) Message dated 25.2.42 was given by Lucas to Benoit (we will later encounter him during the first failing attempt to get be picked-up by a British Naval bark). Lucas does not know what channel Benoit used for passing the message to us.
(c) Message dated 9.2.42. Lucas had not seen this before and he said that he thinks it must have been sent by Miklos (a very prominent Advocate, in France; who once fled to the then unoccupied zone of (Vichy) France) and he does not know what channel was used getting it to us (S.O.E.).
I asked Lucas whether he thought that there was any chance of his channel through Colonel Schow being compromised. His reply was "I hope not". He then added that the German could not possibly be aware of the content of his messages dated 20.2.42 and 25.2.42 (he was then no longer on the continent!) for had they been they would most certainly have arrested him instead of allowing him to come to England.
Lucas was not sure of the dates on which he passed the messages but thinks those dated 20.2.42 left him about Feb. 12th or 13th (So just before they went for the first time to a Briton beach to be picked-up) and that Colonel Schow may have been away from Vichy at the time they arrived there. Someone had told him that these messages had not arrived in London (it went first via Vichy - Genève) until Feb. 23rd he thought.
KV 2/926-1, page 90
This message likely originates from Mr. Benoit - who joined their first attempt to be picked up by a British naval bark, thereafter Mr. Benoit went on via Vichy, where he likely initiated this message to be conveyed via Switzerland on to S.O.E. in London. Then he went via Spain and Portugal and arrived after some time had passed also in London. However, the Germans facilitated deliberately that Lucas and Victoire could be picked-up; they simply suspended patrolling the according beach section. This episode with be dealt with in due course.
In those days - messages conveyed via Vichy, were handed over to the U.S. Military Attaché (MA) and from there send to Geneva and from there directed by W/T to London (neglecting the addressed Service)
Telegram from Geneva CXG. 187 (CX is usually pointing at S.I.S. but might also have been maintained by S.O.E.) 25.2.42
A. Following message received from good source.
B. From Lucas repeat Lucas to Room 055, War Office.
C. Message begins. Operation 13th (at an Britton beach but controlled by the Germans!) both boats capsized all all equipment lost. Officer captured (by the Germans) on account of uniform (AOB, in this circumstance he became a regular P.o.W.) George Paul en route Paris (George Paul was onboard the bark to be brought-in to France) Be cautious all messages via Victoire and all foreigners wishing have hand in business especially Poles (Polish), Marseilles. Send all instruction of departure re departure via Victoire (who was being sent to London as an German Abwehr agent, but on the other hand supported also Lucas genuine activities) but for rest keep to generalities and questions on which you wish to appear to require information. Vital for informer and self be in London by March 1st (Benoit did not yet manage it on this day), if not I may be a fatal casualty. Do your utmost. Sending Benoit via Spain with all information in case of accident to self. If I can be in London by March 1st. greatest coup may be scored and many lives saved. A.4.3089
TP 10.25 (in the morning) 27.2.42 MFB
(AOB, time schedule rather unrealistic, but he ultimately managed to reach London safely)
KV 2/926-2, page 1
A.4. 3089 (A.4 must be a section of M.I.6)
27th November 1941
Walenty Case. (KV 2/72 - KV 2/73, Armand alias Brutus)
(AOB, Walenty and his group, among it Victoire, had been captured on 17th November 1941)
(Message 1. must have been transmitted on the very day of the group's arrest in Paris)
I would like to focus first on message
3. Message from la Chatte:
W/T Message of 23.11.41
"Dans notre nr. 1018 nous vous avons signale que nous sommes traques par les Allemands, et etioned obliges demenager. Nous attendons vos instructions. Argent urgent. Nous somme encore obliges demenager.
Let us now consider, without too much explanation:
© M.Davic Pour LÉxpress
Name: Carré Deckname: La Chat (in the foregoing document La Chatte)
I have already noticed, but not dealt with that Walenty's group had been arrested on 17/18.11.41.
Victoire (Carré) was also captured, but apparently she was turned on the side of the German Abwehr section III-F which meant 'Counter-Espionage'
The messages noted in the KV 2/926-2, page 1, had been sent after 17/18th November 1941, and therefore should be considered transmitted on a German Abwehr (or Orpo) circuit; but handled by Victoire. It was Victoire's transmitter with which S.O.E. communicated with the German Abwehr station in Paris.
KV 2/926-2, page 2 Pre-warning S.O.E.
6). Warning sent to Tudor by Polish H.Q. (not shown) (remember Walenty was Polish and hardly spoke French language)
7). Reply from Tudor, Toulouse : (by then still in the Vichy controlled (unoccupied) France)
Five agents of Walenty escaped into the free zone; they report that Walenty, his secretary (Victoire) and 14 other agents as well as the Post Box (likely someone whom received mails end sent mails out) have been arrested by the Germans on the 17/18th November; all three stations of Walenty as well as the codes are in German hands.
Tudor requests, therefore, for cessatation of W/T work in Paris (did did not went this way, as the Germans especially Victoire played it such that she and others have escaped and continued working as if they acted on behalf of the Poles), because the Germans are working on this station with H.Q. in London. Walenty was caught in bed with papers. Walenty was in the habit of writing down addresses. I never had any contacts with Walenty. Gloria contacted Walenty a few months ago but they did not know each other's addresses. I suppose that Walenty's arrest does not threaten our Officers' Post".
8). Report from Marseilles:
"I wish to report that Walenty and approximately 14 of his agents were arrested
likely in cooperation with Abwehr III-F)
on the 18th 17th November. Today, five agents fled to me from
(they stayed unrecognised
at higher floor levels, and managed to escape over the attached roofs)
Papers, 3 W/T sets, the codes of the whole network and the like have been
caught. The station is in German hands, please cease liaison (with
stations pretending belonging to Walenty's network)
at once. Listen in to me always at 15.30 hours.
9). Request from Marseilles: (P7) (P7return)
In the B.B.C. broadcasts (French) please announce daily, repeating three times the sentence: "La Famille Attention".
Note by A.4. (a 'secret' section of M.I.6, could have been S.I.S. or S.O.E.)
I have told the Poles (their H.Q. in London) that I consider that it would be dangerous to make this broadcast, as it would be informing the Germans that we were aware of the incident and, therefore, would give no hope for Walenty if the Germans had any doubt that they had not seized the whole of his papers and organisation. (AOB, this circumstance, being valid in all German occupied territories)
KV 2/926-2, pp 3
Lucas - Victoire.
On 13.3.42 I heard from Mrs. Christ that Lucas and Victoire seemed to be not on very god term. I discussed with S.I.S and S.O.E,. the possibility of separating them by getting Victoire away into the country for the weekend. Both parties (S.I.S. and S.O.E.) agreed that this would be a good thing (would it really?) because it was worrying Lucas and retarding his recovery (actually their concern was to let him to be slaughtered, and they knew it). It accordingly I saw A.D.B.1., Mr. White, who arranged for U.35 (Mr. Ustinov was a not too smart guy!) to take Victoire down to his house in Gloustershire for Saturday and Sunday. if she wished to go (which she did not!). I discussed this with Boddington (S.O.E.) who agreed.
In the afternoon I saw F/Lt. ... and asked him to put the proposal to Victoire. We agreed that any semblance of compulsion should be avoided and that it should be presented to her merely as a social invitation. .... pointed out that she had several engagements for Saturday and would probably not be able to accept and he was going to put it to her in terms somewhat as follows: that some friends of his would be very pleased if she could go and stay for a weekend in the country amd see something of rural England, that they were very charming and sympathetic people who would look after her very well and to whom she could talk or not, just as she thought fit. Though F/Lt. ..... thought that in view of her engagements on Saturday she would not wish to go, he thought none the less he ought to put the invitation forward which she could refuse or accept just as she thought fit. I agreed to the invitation being put in this way. Unfortunately, however, she was out for the whole afternoon and we were not able to get in touch with her. At about 6.30 Boddington came through on the phone and said that if we were going to cancel her engagement for Saturday he must know immediately and accordingly I was forced to call off the party (thus the make-up?).
I informed A.D.B.1. who asked that we should arrange to take U.35 down on Saturday morning, since he had put off departure to the country for this purpose and I made the necessary arrangements with Mr. Horsfall. (AOB, I cannot remember instantly where, but I encountered the latter's name somewhere in respect to Victoire, somewhere in the files I studied previously)
B.1.a. (M.I.5) 15.3.42 C.H. Harmer (Victoire's case officer)
KV 2/926-2, page 4
Lucas - Victoire.
dated 27th November, 1941, Apart from that I think it necessary to record the following facts.
The first messages sent from Paris deal solely with requests for money and requests for instructions and no information was given about the break-up of the Walenty organisation. It is simply stated on more than one occasion that no details are available and that the part of the organisation which remains is on the run. On the 25th November there is mention of Walenty organisation. It is simply stated on more than one occasion that no details are available and that the part of the organisation which remains is on the run.
She added that the need for money was urgent. S.I.S., who were slightly suspicious at this stage, replied asking her to suggest by what means money could be sent.
On 1st December, 1941, Victoire suggested sending money by aeroplane and said that Desire. KiKi and Victoire would be on the landing ground, She also said that she had found agents for Sectors D, F, E, K, and R, and was worried about Moustic and Charles and asked London to send Cesar to maintain the organisation. Two days later Victoire said that she ...
I would like to skip the rest of this file section, as it is going too much in details.
KV 2/926-2, page 13
Lucas - Victoire.
A meeting took place today, 11.3.42, about this case at Brigadier Gubbins' office, at which the following were present:-
Major Maurice Buckmaster
Mr. D.G. White
Major Robertson (TAR)
Mr. C.H. Harmer (Victoire's guiding officer) (A9) ↓↓ (A9return)
Brigadier Gubbins said that it had been decided by his organisation (S.O.E.) that in no circumstances could Victoire accompany Lucas back to France. He had had a long talk with Lucas on this point on Saturday and he thought that the decision would be accepted and that Lucas would be prepared to work without Victoire. The question which now remained was whether Lucas should return to France under his old identity or whether he should grow a beard and disguise himself and go back under a fresh identity. It was, however, absolutely essential in Lucas' view for him to make another appearance in France in order to keep up the morale of his organisation. In response to a question whether Lucas would be prepared to go back alone, Major Buckmaster said he would accept the decision. brigadier Gubbins said that in any event we had at least a fortnight to make preparations because it would not be possible to send Lucas back till the time of the next full moon.
With regard to Victoire, it was considered after a little discussion that it was out of the question to intern her (Victoire) or put her in prison since Lucas would be returning in about two months and it was important not to do anything to antagonise (provoke) him. (AOB, jumping in time forwards: Lucas was captured in France later, and therefore did not return to England again. Victoire's guiding officer Mr Harmer (M.I.5) proved to be not 'a friend of Victoire, and did his best to get her become imprisoned on 1st July 1942. Albeit, that S.O.E. insisted to get the Minutes notice that they (S.O.E.) did object what was due to happen!) At the same time it was obviously undesirable for her to run around in London without any job to do and Mr. White said that he could arrange for her to go down to the country. Commander Dunderdale (S.I.S.) says that it would be necessary to give some definite work to do to flatter her and make her think she was undertaking → (page 14)
KV 2/926-2, page 14
something very important. It was also suggested that she might be asked to write a complete account of her experiences and her contacts with the Germans and the German Intelligence Organisation.
Major Maurice Buckmaster (S.O.E.) put forward rather tentatively (hesitantly) a suggestion that ultimately she might be sent to do some work among Arabs, since she knew them well and had lived for some part of her life in Morocco.
With regard to the plans for Lucas on his
did not materialise, due to his future arrest by the Germans);
Brigadier Gubbins (S.O.E.)
said that the bombardment of the prison and the blowing up of the
buildings were not worth a risk, in view element of chance involved. There
therefore remained the poisoning of Bleicher (with
latter once Victoire was his mistress)
Ernst Bleicher an Abwehr Uffz. or Officer; KV 2/164 - KB 2/166 & KV 2/2127, PF
and the long term objective of building up Lucas' organisation. After some
discussion the conclusion was reached that the poisoning of Bleicher would
probably accomplish very little because his records are almost certainly
duplicated in Berlin. Therefore, the one and only real objective is
building up of his organisation and it is for this reason that the return of
Victoire to France with him is out of the question.
Various schemes were suggested for explaining away to the Germans the failure of Victoire to return and this point was left to be considered. Commander Dunderdale (S.I.S.) however, said that the working of the transmitter in Paris (Bleicher or Orpo controlled) was no longer important from an information point of view and it should be regarded as a security matter. Ultimately it was decided that arrangements would be made by us for sending Victoire away to the country and that S.O.E. would pursue their preparations for Lucas' return (to France),, subject always to this state of health being satisfactory. We are also to work out, in conjunction with Section V (S.I.S./M.I.6), a plan for the future working of the Victoire transmitter (Bleicher controlled) in Paris.
B.1.a. (M.I.5) C.H. Harmer (the one who later was one of the strongest opponent towards Victoire)
KV 2/926-2, page 54 We have encountered Lucas various times, but what were his particulars? I therefore copied only this paragraph from a minute sheet.
I saw Mr. Lucas at 6 Orchard Court (an S.O.E. address, in London) today at 4 p.m. He is a small, slimly built Frenchman of about 30 - 35 years of age. He speaks English very well but occasionally lapses into French. I gather he was educated in this country and has obviously lived here (with his family) for some considerable time. Major Boddington of S.O.E. was present and before my interview started he and I had a short talk. He is obviously, and quite naturally, very pro Lucas for the simple reason that he is entirely responsible for Lucas' career as an S.O.E. agent. Major Boddington is also in a good position to judge because he himself was born and brought up in France, and I gather has done a certain amount of work for S.O.E. on the continent during this war.
End of this multi-page report was on behalf of B.1.a. M.I.5's Major T.A. Robertson. Dated: 3.3.42
Please bear time and again in mind - that these reports run in an reversed - time order.
New file series: KV 2/927
Carré Mme. Mathilde Lucie
PF 62,365 Vomecourt, is the genuine surname of Lucas; which file apparently has been destroyed, but quite much still being covered within these extensive file series totalling of 2048 pages
KV 2/927-1, page 2 Minute 123
D.D.G through A.D.B.1. D.G. White
Please see (genuine) minute at 10 (please click at it as to see the content of Minute 10) (first file KV 2/926-1). The position as set out in that minute has been altered, first by the return to France at the beginning of April (42) of Lucas and secondly by his mistress (Victoire) moving out of the flat they originally occupied when they reached this country. She has been residing since 7th April in a flat run by this section (B.1.a. of M.I.5) under our control (including build-in secret microphones?). It is now proposed to let her live in a flat more centrally situated (centre of London) where she will need less looking after, and accordingly a flat in Stratford Court, Oxford Street, has been taken for her. (AOB, I couldn't find it by means of Google Earth)
The position in France is by no means clear. Lucas has returned there and is building up his organisation, but somewhat disturbing messages have recently been received and clarification is awaited. A danger of the plans of S.O.E. miscarrying over there certainly appears to exist and it is felt that it is our duty to protest those plans as far as possible. Accordingly the closest possible watch should be kept on Lucas' mistress (Victoire), still in this country, who is now living as Madame de Roche. She is in a position at moment to betray him (sexually) and his schemes and also to give information which, if it came into the enemy's hands, would enable to track him down under his new identity in France.
We therefore wish to continue watching as closely as possible her contacts and activities and accordingly are applying for (being blanked) (were they demanding for acoustical tapping means?) at the new flat.
A telephone check (always applied for at the Home Office) will be applied for as soon as the telephone number is known (it is necessary to insert a new line). A H.O.W. (Home Office Watch) is already in operation and notice of change address is also being given.
The appropriate letter (blanked) (Home Office and G.P.O for mail retaining) with regard to ..., submitted for (H.O.) signature if approved.
B.1.a. (M.I.5) Major T.A. Robertson (TAR)
KV 2/927-1, page 11 (D)
Mayfair 7474, Extension 603.
5.5.42 (Cylinder (track) 1)
Victoire rings Paddington 4809 twice. The second time she is told that Henri (a friend of Lucas) will be back in ½ hour.
(cylinder (track) 2)
Victoire rings Henri. She tells him she cannot keep her appointment and asks if she can come a little earlier. He can't do this and they arrange top have lunch together at Oddenos (likely a Greek restaurant)
6.5.42. (cylinder (track) 4)
Henri rings and asks how she is, did she have a good evening.
V. Oui très bon.
H. Très bon, je suis bien content.
V. Tout va très bien.
H. Pas deflexion chef.
V. Ah non non. Ecoutez, vous êtes ridicule. Ne dites pas comme ca. Non non, qu'est que ce matin je dois voir Ki (Kiki?) vous savez, et ensuite discuter le cas.
Tal of roses, chocolates, cirgarettes Henri has given her. He arranges to ring her next morning.
Victoire rings Flaxman 0286 (= Anna Mayersohn)
V. Mme Mayersohn?
V. Ici Madame de Roche.
M. Bonjour Madame.
V. Bonjour Madame, comment allez vous?
M. Merci tr`s bien, et vous?
V. Moi je vais tr`s bien aussi. Jái vu le Docteur.
V. Et il m'a renouvelé votre desir de me voir et de faire certaines choses.
(AOB, to give you an example of the so many intercepts existing within this file series; in one word: futile!)
KV 2/927-1, page 14 (AOB, albeit quite deteriorated the judgement might be in our context of relevance; we should, however, bearing in mind, that the author of this document was apparently not Victoire's friend and in June he did everything to send her to the Aylesbury Prison!)
Mr. Harmer May 4th , 1942
When I met Victoire first I was reluctant to give you my opinion? of her as I felt after our first unfortunate meeting I might be (pre?) judiced against her and I also felt that due to my poor knowledge of? French I was not in a position to judge her. Having lived with her? for over 3 weeks, however, during the whole of which time she behaved? or was? exceedingly charming to me, I would now like to give my opinion? of her.
I think that she has a very thin veneer of charm, kindness ?? consideration, but underneath it all she is an utterly egoistical woman who cares for nothing and nobody but herself and her own wellbeing? and pleasures.
In spite of her apparent desire for work she is very lazy and? will only do what amuses her. When happy she can be very amusing? and although she goes in a lot for dirty stories her sense of humour? at times is almost infantile.
She is clever, but not as clever as she thinks she is, and has an enormous vanity and with flattery it is possible to guide her to a certain extent and for a limited period. On the other hand, she has enormous arrogance, completely unfounded, and as a sense of her own infallibility (trustworthiness) which results in the most offensive remarks and behaviour, particularly against unfortunate Free French officers whom she may come across in restaurants and whom she has habit of lecturing by simple butting into their conversations. (AOB, maybe this habit was emphasised by the very fact, that her former husband we voluntarily went to Syria (Lebanon?) which Victoire had refused!)
As long as she gets what she wants she is perfectly charming and merely asks for more, but at the slightest sign of opposition she will either burst into fury, ending up in a pathetic scene or, if that is not successful, act the injured party and become difficult and obstinate and also refuse to eat. We have not yet tried out what the next phase would be, but I think I am justified in saying from my knowledge of her that, as she is very vindictive (bitter), she would quitely try to get her own back on the person or persons opposing her, and if she did not get what she wanted herself she would try and find some body else who would give it her. In fact, given a chance she would sell any information she has to to the other side. I do not know the exact details of her case but gather that she done exactly this twice previously merely out of vindictiveness (unkindness) and because of her desire for amusement and luxury.
Added to all this there is, of course, her interest in men. She feels she is irresistible to men anyhow and to sleep with a man seems a necessity to her. But once she gets hold of a man it is up to her to drop him or be unfaithful to him, and God help the man or that matter the Service he is in, if he dares to drop her. From all her talk and the hints she has given me there does not seem to be a → (page 14)
KV 2/927-1, page 14
xxxx to her vindictiveness (unkindness).
Summing up. I think she is an exceedingly dangerous woman when xxx?, who can be played along for a time provided a gerat deal of xxx is spent on her and a great deal of trouble taken to amuse her. xxx and get her cooperation on a reasonable basis by pointing out xxx that there is a war on will not have the slightesty effect on xxx in spite of all her declarations of ardent patriotism, this xxx war is merely a means to an end for her, viz. her amusement, xxx and life of luxury.
S. Barton (she was Victoire's maid)
(AOB, I wonder what the academic qualifications, likely, Mr Harmer, possessed. In my perception, it is not unlikely that Mr. C. H. Harmer of M.I.5 (her case officer) felt animosity against Madam Carré alias Victoire. On the other hand I cannot judge Victoire's human qualities. Therefore I have duplicated and transcribed this curious paper)
KV 2/927-2, page 86 ++ This is a thrilling account as to how Victoire and Lucas ultimately managed to be picked up by a British tuck on 18th ? February 1942 from a Britton beach
As to obtain a better understanding, why not viewing what GoogleEarth tells us about the spot next dealt with?
(H) Morlaix is a bit south-west of Moulin de la Rive
This is the area where we next will deal with
Next will deal with the particular beach were the following dramatic story took place about mid February 1942
(E) (L5) ↓ returning at the end of this particular subject quite further (X7) (X7return) (U33) ↓↓↓↓↓↓ (U33return)
In the centre we have a view on just the beach section where the next told history once took place
Not yet dealt with, but they were successfully picked up during the next attempt.
(F) (T7) ↓↓ (T7return) (Y7) (Y7return) (C21) ↓↓↓↓ (C21return) (Y35) (Y35return)
↓↓ Crown Copyright
Benoit 30.3.42 (Benoit's report given after he arrived in England ultimately) Minute 87 a
Report on Moulin de la Rive
One of Benoit's contacts was a man who has a house in Brittany - near Saint-Malo - when it was decided - and when it was decided to attempt a sea operation, Lucas asked Benoit if he could not arrange an operation, Lucas asked Benoit if he could not arrange an operation by motor boat. Benoit gave his risk to his friend who, in turn, found a former Breton naval man to go out on a reconnaissance. As a matter of fact, Benoit wanted to use his friend's own house near Saint-Malo, as material could have been stored in it. However they received a telegram from us (S.O.E.) saying that the Navy preferred a place between St. Brieuc and L'Aberwrach . The Breton naval man was sent up on reconnaissance and he suggested either Moulin de la Rive or Locquirec, and for the following reasons:-
At Plouigneau - which is about 15 miles inland, and which where the trains stops - he (the naval man) has a friend who is a motor lorry contractor had been requisitioned by the Germans and were running with the German number plates on them. He said that if we could arrange the operation for a Sunday, he would us e these very lorries to take us from Plouigneau, pick up supplies or men and drive them back, and he could also arrange for them to live in houses or farms.
Of course, as it turned out, the beach at Moulin de la Rive was a very bad one, but it must be realised that Benoit and his friends thought that this beach had been approved by the Navy because they knew of the conditions there. As Benoit pointed out, they had, after all, never received any training or instructions is shore landings.
The only reason why Benoit did not use the facilities offered by his friends for
the operation on the 13th February was that the
were watching and he had no wish to get his friends shot for nothing.
He therefore kept silent about the plan using the lorries and farmers; only
Lucas (therefore Victoire
and thus Bleicher)
knew what the possibilities were. Actually they decided to go on foot from
Plouigneau - about 15 miles.
Benoit and his two companions arrived at Plouigneau railway station on the morning of Friday, 13th February. They walked to Moulin de la Rive; they arrived about 7 p.m. He understood that the German authorities had received orders to eliminate all patrols (AOB, the crucial reason was that Victoire was engaged; but they after all watched it from some distance, and were rather well informed on what happened), but felt sure that out of sheer curiosity they would try to watch the operation (This indeed was truly the case). It was therefore necessary that Benoit and his friend should act as though they were taking precautions. They thought that London was aware of the situation, because a telegram had been sent through Vichy some time previously. They therefore expected that the delivery of two men and some equipment would have been cancelled and that the operation would merely consist in taking off the tree of them (Benoit, who did not went this way, Victoire and Lucas went). The prepared to the beach about 9 p.m. and hid themselves in the sand behind a ridge of piled-up stones at the spot indicated in London's instructions.
At the appointed time (1.a.m. German time) (0100 modern notation) they began flashing the signals out to sea. They had not been interfered → (page 87)
KV 2/927-2, page 87 (G)
↓↓ Crown Copyright
with by any patrol, but Lucas distinctly hear five persons crawling about. At about 2.45 a.m. (0245 modern notation) Benoit saw a man walking along the beach below the shingle (grit). He went to him. The man said "Hallo Maurice", to which Benoit replied "O.K. Eduard" and then called Lucas and his companion (among it Victoire).
The new arrival said he was Paul (he was to be brought-in on behalf of S.O.E.) Benoit asked him where the boat was. Paul replied that it had put him off but there had been some trouble and that "he" had gone back for a Tommy Gun and that two more boats would be coming. They all went to the water's edge but the tide was rising and they had to keep moving back. Benoit flashed a read light to show the exact spot where they were. While they were waiting for the boats to come back, another man appeared on the beach from behind them. He also gave the password and said he was George. Later another man, also coming from the rear of the beach, turned up. He was a naval officer, who introduced himself - an Australian Benoit thinks. Some time afterwards they saw the two boats approaching the beach. They were carrying cases of supplies.
The seamen who were rowing the boats wanted to unload the supplies, but Benoit and Lucas explained to all the people present that order were changed and that every item of equipment and every person must go back to the ship and that the three of them must be taken off, as they suspect there was grave danger of being captured. (AOB, please remember, that their operation on that beach had been facilitated by the German military service on order from Abwehr III-F (counter-espionage) and later it was found that some German soldiers concerned watched the events from some distance. After their failed attempt to be taken off the beach and the loss of some suitcases, they left the beach; but the Germans retrieved the lost items - but those then concerned were not aware of it!)
The sea suddenly began to get rough; a sort of heavy swell began to develop with the rising tide; they were forced further and further back.
Lucas and Victoire went towards one of the boats. They told the seaman not to unload anything, that it must all go back to the ship. Lucas and Victoire clambered in and the seaman began rowing asked if we would give the boat off. Benoit approached and the seaman asked if he would give the boat a push. Benoit went round to the stern, tried pushing it, but could not get it off. He saw that there was a suitcase under the passenger feet and that the boat was partly full of water. Just as she was going to tell them to jump out, a breaker over turned over turned the boat. Into this boat their own personal luggage had also been put; Benoit's case was a very small attaché case, in which he had placed newspapers, samples of soap etc. and various oddments which he thought might be of use to us, also his few personal effects. As the boat overturned, Lucas and Victoire managed to get out, so did the seaman. Benoit attempted to recover the luggage, but the only the was able to get hold of was a case of equipment with a string handle, which he dragged up the beach. he was in about three feet (ca. 90 cm) of water and could not locate anything else.
Benoit approached the second boat in which a seaman was sitting and into which a man - he thinks Paul (who was supposed to be dropped at the French beach) - had climbed. He did not know whether it carried equipment. A couple of other people were trying to get into the boat - George was probably one of them, but there was another seaman holding the stern of the boat and he very probably ordered everybody away. Benoit went back → (KV 2/927-3, page 1)
KV 2/927-3, page 1
↓↓ Crown Copyright
to see if anything could be done with the first boat, but this was impossible.
In the meantime, the second boat had also overturned in a breaker.
They all struggled out of the water on to the beach and spoke to the officer (there was nobody in command of the operation, the officer was standing on the beach with his hands behind his back). The seamen were quite capable of handling their boats well but had no chance
It should be mentioned here that Benoit had been going back and forward from one boat to the other, but did not set a foot in either of them.
Whilst they were talking to the officer, one of the boats was brought back to the shore and righted, but it was found that one oar was missing. It was decided, nevertheless, to try to get two people off in it. Lucas and Victoire told Benoit to go, as they considered that so long as the two of them were together, they were safe, whereas if Lucas and Victoire went and Benoit and the two new arrivals (among Paul) stayed, the Germans might have thought (they watched it all, but kept hidden) there was no reason why they should not be arrested. The officer said he would stay to the last, as it was his duty.
While this exchange of "courageous politeness" was going on, Lucas got impatient and said: "Benoit, you go to the ship and tell them they must come back with a boat and take us off. However, one glance at the boat showed that nobody could get into it.
There were then 8 persons on the beach, the naval officer, the two seamen, George, Paul, Lucas and Victoire, and Benoit. The officer borrowed Lucas' torch and began flashing messages out to the sea. Benoit asked him whether there was another boat available. he said there was a dinghy on board the ship. Benoit asked him whether they would send it out. He said he did not know but was telegraphing to the ship telling them the situation and advising them, if they could not do anything, to scram. He said they might keep on trying until 5.30 a.m. British time, but then they would have to go in order to escape attack from aircraft in daylight. The officer later said that he could see the ship moving, probably going away. Benoit said it was rotten of them to leave all of the shore people in the lurch, but the officer immediately defend this decision by saying that there were vary valuable men on board, that they had been performing this sort of operation for six weeks, that it was just too bad and that was all. He seemed to be a very brave man.
After speaking to the officer the two seaman began to work on one of the two boats and Benoit saw no more of them. Apparently they got back to the ship, rowing with floorboards.
The officer said he was sure the ship had gone and, either seeing it or imagining that he could, he kept flashing messages turning his flashlight at an angle towards the east. The officer said he could see something and that the ship must have come back, then he said he could see a boat. Some time later Benoit saw this boat quite distinctly; it was being badly tossed about but seemed to be handled with amazing skill. It was in the breakers about 50 yards from the water's edge and looked as if it was being tossed up with its end almost vertical. They could distinctively see one man's head and shoulders as the boat was pitched into the air. The officer → (KV 2/927-3, page 2)
KV 2/927-3, page 2
↓↓ Crown Copyright
called for two men to go and hold the boat. Benoit and one other tried to get to it, but when the former got breast high in the water and was being constantly flung off his feet by the waves, he realised it was impossible and came back to the beach. The boat then withdrew and seemed to approach another point of the shore in order to find a better place. They watched it until about 6.15 local time.
As it seemed hopeless, the officer asked Benoit what he should do. Benoit asked him if the boat would come back the next night. The officer replied that it it was at all possible they certainly would. he, the officer, said he considered the sea was too rough and that the operation never have been attempted on that night. He asked what would be likely to happen to him. Benoit told him that if he was seen by the Germans attempting to get away, he would be shot at. He asked what would happen if he went and gave himself up. Benoit told him he would then be a prisoner of war and advised him to go and hide in the woods and come back the following night, but he said he did not think he could stand the cold.
During this time Paul and George had taken off their nautical closing and appeared in civilian garments. Lucas told them they could either come back the following night to see if the boat was coming back and if that failed they were then to go to Paris and meet him at the Bar rendez-vous which had been given to them. Lucas advised them to throw away their pistols,
As there seemed to come no more hope of being taken off that night, they all decided to separate. Benoit said he felt very very sorry for the officer as, in the first place, he could not, of course, have realised the true situation - that is to say that they were all being carefully watched and, wearing uniform, he could not possibly escape. They had no clothing to give him, nowhere to take him, as they themselves had no hotel, and they were helpless to do anything about it.
They separated - Lucas, Victoire and Benoit going towards Locquirec, where they had dinner the previous evening, and where they hoped to find somewhere to dry themselves as they were all wet through, and the last they saw of their three companions they were standing on the beach. All the hotel rooms at Loquirec were requisitioned, although there were no German soldiers in them, and no hotel proprietor of the hotel where had been previous evening to let them into the kitchen to dry their clothes; it was impossible to change, as they had lost almost everything.
They later decided to go to Lanmeur to see if they could get a room at a hotel. They took a bus there but could not find a room. The people seemed most inhospitable and appeared to collaborate with the Germans. They had lunch and some gendarmes came to ask for their papers. They said they were sent by the German Kommandant. This was obviously part of the "mise en scene". In the afternoon, they walked back to Locquirec, had dinner in the kitchen of the hotel where they had been in the morning and went back to the beach about 11 p.m.
In the meantime, during the afternoon, Victoire had gone to the German Kommandantur at Moulin de la Rive to find out what had happened. The Germans said that as soon as the three of them (Lucas, Victoire and Benoit) had left, the two other civilians had moved away. The Germans had allowed them to go and then arrested the officer. There were five German agents who had watched the operation and they had had said it was a wonderful experience, but they had been obliged to arrest the → (KV 2/927-3, page 3)
KV 2/927-3, page 3
↓↓ Crown Copyright
officer as he was in uniform; they were very proud of their capture. As for the two other young men, they would be allowed to run and they were arrested they would probably only get three months' imprisonment for having been to England and returned with the intention of serving the enemy.
The second evening (that is 14.2.42 at 11. p.m. they returned to the beach and at the previously agreed times they fleshed signals. They, of course, saw neither George, Paul or the officer. (AOB, Paul and George were allowed to slip away, and the officer had been made P.o.W. the foregoing night) They went back to the hotel in Locquirec at 4. a.m. (0400 hour) and lay down on the ground in the hotel yard, as they were unable to rouse the owner. At 8. a.m. they took the bus to Morlaix. They were completely exhausted, wet through and covered with sand. They went on to Le Mans to spend the night. They rested the next day, then Lucas and Victoire left for Paris and Benoit made his way south.
Benoit's criticism of the above operation:-
I think that while the Royal Navy can be completely exonerated (acquitted) from any blame in the actual handling of the boats, it was a mistake to unload all the men and goods from the ship without finding out what the situation was. In other words, they should have sent one boat and not sent anything else until one one of the people who was to have been taken off had been brought back to the ship. As it was, absolute chaos reigned (governed).
I can absolutely certify that nobody panicked, nobody seemed frightened - in fact the arguments which arose were as to who should go off first, each one wanting someone else to go.
If, for instance - in view of the condition of the sea and the tiny size of the boats - the boat in which Lucas and Victoire climbed was overloaded, the superintending officer should have given instructions (the foregoing story expressed this officer watching with his hands on his back) that nobody should get in, or for the supplies to be dumped first - as did the seaman for the other boat. However, in spite of the seaman's precautions, the second boat overturned also, thus showing that the main cause of the trouble was the surf (sea).
It should be noted that when Victoire went on 14.2.42 to see the Germans, they said that; in order not to awaken our suspicions, they had decided to leave on the beach all the stuff which would be visible at low tide, so that we would not think anybody had seen the operation. Lucas and I discussed on the night of the 14th whether we should try to recuperate it, but decided it was better not to.
I was rather in favour of trying to hide it, as I did not know to what extent the Germans had knowledge of our types of explosives, wireless sets, etc, but Lucas said he had no doubt that, through various unfortunate deliveries, they already had samples of all our equipment and that this viewpoint did not stand. (During the course of the occupation, we may consider that ca 50% of all dropping finished in German hands)
Whilst was talking to the officer on the beach, one criticism I mad was that these little boats were hopelessly inadequate. The officer replied that they were so easy to → (KV 2/927-3, page 4)
KV 2/927-3, page 4
↓↓ Crown Copyright
handle. However, I myself say that for hundreds of years boats have been landing on beaches and they were not all of that particular type, which seemed to me to be very saucer-like. I think one large substantial boat with a keel would have been much better. When I said this to the officer, he replied that we would never been able to get a boat like that off again.
AOB, I suppose that we have dealt now with substantial materials, and we should implement a pause; and consider that the foregoing materials is our chapter 1
KV 2/927-3, page 6
It is not always possible to have financial agreements concerning the payments of agents properly ordered upon paper, for it is normal to find certain inhibitions (embarrassments) in people's minds about so committing themselves. It seems to me all right if the present arrangements concerning Victoire's expenses are agreed between you and the other two departments (S.I.S. and S.O.E.) and minutes kept of the agreements reached. In the case of Victoire's salary, I think prior consultation should take place between you, S.I.S. and S.O.E..
Date 6.4.42 Signature D.G. White
KV 2/927-3, page 6
What are they keeping hidden?
Let us view what minute 82 d is about. What the hell do they have to keep hidden, I consider it it stinks!
KV 2/927-1, page 5
What the hell do they have to keep hidden, I consider it it might stink!
I may consider myself being quite experienced dealing with the TNA archive series KV 2/xxx, but have never encountered anything like this!
Not a single line being made invisible, but and entire page with one exception?
We know at least, that it covered what had happened between 2 April 1942 and 8 April 1942
The next page shows the extent of the chaos. We must consider that a series of matters appeared or happened that's content has to be kept hidden for future generations
KV 2/927-3, page 6
We must consider that a series of matters appeared or happened that its content or event has to be kept hidden for future generations!
Names can be made invisible, but this concerns more than a single person or event?
For the second time we we encounter a minute referring onto minute 10 ((genuine) minute at 10) please click at this hyperlink as to see what it is about.
quoting: Please see Minute 10 (see foregoing hyperlink). The man (Lucas) with whom subject of this file, Madame Carré, was living returned to France in the middle of the last week. Madame Carré is remaining in this country for at least to months, and in that period messages will be passed through to the Germans leading them to suppose that they will both return at the end of April or beginning of May. It is essential to the plans of Lucas that no news of his return to France should leak out in this country in such a way that the information may get into the hands of the enemy. Accordingly it is thought to be all important to keep the closest possible watch on the activities of this lady (Victoire) while she remains in this country.
In order to cope with the difficulties of names, the H.O.W. (Home Office Watch-list) on their previous address was put on "any name". She has now moved to a new address and it is desired to continue the check and in order to transfer it, it is necessary to obtain fresh H.O.W. Her papers are in the false name of Mlle. de Roche but she may possibly get letters in her own name (Carré) at the new address.
A H.O.W. in her own name, and the name chosen for her in this country, at her present address is accordingly submitted for signature if approved.
B.1.a. Major T.A. Robertson (TAR)
8.4.42 AOB, this is apparently after the episode during the blanked black pages.
Let us continue again with the sequence of our file series.
KV 2/927-3, page 18
To M.I.5 (through special Branch)
no trace of this person at this office, but a white card in Dead Section shows:
"Vomecourt, Pierre Edouard Fourier de Crevoisier de Naturalised ... (our alias Lucas!)
H.O. (Home Office) file V.4846/2 and 2 shows that above named was included on the Naturalisation Certificate of his mother and is therefore a British Subject. He was French at birth.
2.4.42 Chief Inspector.
AOB: notice the regular notation: B.1.a whereas in this document series mainly B.1.A. being maintained. But my very comprehensive experience, taught me that B.1.a. was by far maintained during the war period.
KV 2/927-3, page 39
On 30.3.42 I spoke to Major Buckmaster of S.O.E. at his office about Lucas and asked whether we might have some particulars relating to his background, and I was given the following particulars by Major Boddington (S.O.E.).
Full name: Pierre de Crevoisier de Vomecourt (Lucas)
Born: 1.1.1906 at Chassey (Haut Saone)
He is married with two children and his wife and children are living in France. When Lucas was two years old, his father came to live at 76 The Drive, Hove, with his family consisting of two daughters and three sons. The sons were all educated at Beaumont College. In 1917 Lucas' mother applied for neutralisation but her husband was killed in action and she returned to France in 1920 instead. Lucas and his brothers and sisters continued their education in France.
During this war Lucas was some sort of interpreter or liaison officer attached to the British Army and was with the 7th Cameronians. He left Cherbourg when they were evacuated from France and on their return to this country (U.K.) was very anxious to continue the fight against Germany, and at one time contempted joining the Free French Forces in desperation. However, he was introduced by Boddington (S.O.E.) to Gaston Palewsky, who was Regnaud's former Chief Cabinet, and was taken on by S.O.E.
Lucas in civil life was an advisor on business organisation. When he was in this country in 1940 (after Cherbourg in France) he lived with a certain Henri Witotsky, who is without doubt the "Henri" who rings him up frequently at the present time D (and who continued so after Lucas had left)
B.1.a. (M.I.5) ` C.H. Harmer (Victoire's case officer)
KV 2/927-3, page 40
Mr. Marriot (M.I.5)
On 30.3.42, in discussing generally the break-up of the Walenty organisation (KV 2/72 & KV 2/73 @ Brutus) , Victoire referred to the fact that she would like to do something for F/Lt. Philipson's wife and father-in-law. She then told me that the latter was in the hands of the Germans and in prison because the Germans had managed to break up.
As far as I can gather, the organisation was run by a man called Jules and other members of the organisation were F/Lt. Philipson's father-in -law and his wife and a wireless operator. I gather that they have all been caught with the exception of Jules who is still at liberty. Victoire had been asked about the because they had informed the British authorities as soon as she arrived in this country that the organisation was now in the hands of the Germans.
Victoire told me that these people had been caught as a direct result of information given to the Germans by Violette. Apparently Walenty, when he was over in the country (U.K.), had obtained an address of the father-in -law and had sent Violette to collect or deliver something there (it may have been that he had given Violette a letter to post to an address which Violette had seen). In any event she had betrayed the address and as a result poor people were in the hands of the Germans.
The wireless operator was also caught, but I am not clear from what Victoire said, whether the station is still being worked. It would be interesting to clear up this point because the developments of this case would have a marked bearing on the Victoire/Lucas case, having regard to the tie-up between the two.
B.1.a. C.H. Harmer (Victoire's case officer)
KV 2/927-3, page 41
Note on interview with Benoit
(the one whom attended the episode on the Britton beach on 13/14 February 42)
I saw Benoit, B.H. Cowburn, on March 27th at 9 Orchard Court (AOB, might this have been one of the S.O.E. addresses in London). The meeting was arranged for me by S.O.E. He appears to be about 30 years old, fair haired, clean-shaven, with a pleasant smile and a very pronounced scar on his left temple. He speaks English slowly with a slight north (of England) country accent and throughout the interview it was plain that he was suffering from nerves because his hand was trembling. I was informed by Captain de Gaelis, who was present at the interview, that Benoit was a commissioned British officer (he was dressed in uniform when I saw him) who who had been recruited by S.O.E. in England and sent over to France. The impression he gave throughout the interview was very good.
I explained to him that I was interested in clearing up the very complicated story of the Victoire affair and that it was necessary to interview various people to get their account so that all the various versions could be collated (gathered). I asked him if he could tell me everything he knew about Victoire and the circumstances of her tie-up with Lucas and subsequent developments. He said that everything he knew was hearsay and that he had no direct knowledge until the trip to the coast (E) on February 13th (/14th, 1942) when the boat over-turned and the naval officer was captured.
He confirmed that in the last days in 1941 Lucas made the acquaintance of somebody who worked in a British organisation which had a quick means of communicating with England. This channel was used by Lucas for a certain period for sending messages across and so far as Benoit was aware, Lucas did not at the beginning have any idea that the channel was working under the control of the Germans.
When Lucas found out that this was the case, Benoit said that he was exceedingly worried about the position; this he thought was probably about the middle of January. He, Benoit,was not at that time known personally to the Germans but he said that they knew him from descriptions and photograph because before → (page 42)
KV 2/927-3, page 42
Lucas knew that Victoire was controlled he had obtained from her Police passes, one of which was in the name of Benoit, the reason being that the Polish organisation had duplicates of all the Police Paris stamps. Benoit said that it was a great shock to him when he realised that the Germans must thereby have his photograph and know his name and address but that he continued to live at his house. He (Benoit) Roger set about trying to buy and axe in order to bump off Bleicher, but later on decided that the best way of dealing with the situation was to have a very good lunch.
Benoit then explained the various attempts at getting Lucas away. There was first of all the operation at Vaas (?) on January 9th, when the aeroplane flew at a considerable distance from the place agreed upon. Benoit went to the landing field and he understood that Victoire was driven there by Bleicher (Abwehr III-F Uffz. or Offizier) in his car (registration TRM 2984) in order to watch the whole thing. After this came the Lysander operation, on January 31st, but that failed also. I asked him whether the Germans intended to try and capture the Lysander after it had landed and Benoit replied that he had heard that they had no intention of doing so.
I then asked him (Benoit?) whether he did not think it very extraordinary that the Germans had allowed this matter to develop as they did, without taking decisive action. He (Benoit or Lucas?) said that Bleicher and the Cherbourg authorities had been congratulated by their superiors on the round-up of the Polish organisation but had later received rebuke (reprimand) for closing down on another organisation too soon. They were therefore very anxious to let the Lucas organisation develop as far as possible before breaking it up. He pointed out that this was only the explanation he had heard at the time from Victoire and he (Benoit) could not of course say that this was the case with any certainty.
I asked him whether he (Benoit) had thought at that time that he was in danger and the said that he had felt pretty certain that so long as the Germans knew where → (page 43)
KV 2/927-3, page 43
he was and what he was doing he would not be arrested. He had heard however, from Victoire, that he (Benoit) was the person they wanted to catch (somewhere later, Victoire noticed that she and Lucas were allowed to leave, but explicitly not in the case of Benoit) above all because he (Benoit) was English, and it was for this reason that Lucas particularly wished Benoit to get away with him. Lucas had therefore taken Benoit with him to the coast when the operation of February 13th was planned (F) and the Germans allowed this because Victoire had given an undertaking (AOB, signed for it with her "Unterschrift" and such is quasi "holy" in totalitarian states) that he (Benoit) would not go with Lucas. Nevertheless, Benoit was to have gone on board if the operation had been successful. (Benoit later arrived in England - via Vichy, Spain and Portugal) Benoit incidentally, had chosen the place where this operation was to have taken place.
Benoit told how he and Lucas and Victoire went to the coast on the night of 13/14th and confirmed Victoire's story hearing German German guards crawling about all round them. He (Benoit) said that they had to act as if they did not know they were being watched and this created a very comic situation. He thought it amazing that Victoire walked 20 km to the coast and after getting soaked (water-logged) in the water walked 15 km before they were able to find a shelter.
When the naval officer and the two operators (George and Paul arriving from England) (G) came ashore the first thing the operators did was to warn Benoit and Lucas that the British had the gravest suspicion about the transmitter in Paris (which actually was German Abwehr controlled). I (Harmer; Victoire's M.I.5 case officer) asked him whether the operators or the naval officer had been told that Lucas knew the transmitter to be controlled emphasising that had these people been rigorously cross-examined they might have given away that Lucas knew what Victoire was doing. He (Benoit) said that he was certain that he had not said anything to them that implied that he knew Victoire was working for the Germans but that I (Mr. Harmer, M.I.5) ought to ask Lucas about it also. With regard to the naval officer, he said that he had made previous trip to the shore and was exceedingly tired out and that he thought that anything he said after his arrest was not the proper test of his true sentiments.
After the operation had failed the two wireless operators (George and Paul arriving from England) were told either to go to Paris or return on the following night in the hopes of being picked up. The → (page 44)
KV 2/927-3, page 44
naval officer was advised to give himself up as a prisoner of war. Victoire, Lucas and Benoit then went off and eventually managed to find a place at Morlaix (H) in a village where they were able to get some food. Victoire then left them to go and see the German authorities (Ortskommandantur, to get informed and likely also informing them). They returned on the night of the 14/15th but nobody turned up and, as he subsequently heard, the two wireless operators were arrested. After waiting at the same spot on this occasion, they left and returned once more to Morlaix where they had obtained food on the previous day. Benoit spent a night in Morlaix and then a discussion was held as to subsequent procedure. Lucas was insistent that Benoit should not return to Paris but should try to escape, and it was arranged that he (Benoit) should get on a train going to Bordeaux and Hendaye (border town opposite Irun in Spain) to find a way of getting across the frontier as an alternative method of going back to England. Benoit would then leave the train on the way to Bordeaux and slip across the line of demarcation (into Vichy France). Benoit then left Lucas and Victoire and did exactly this, called on Lucas' brother and then went to Vichy. At Vichy he delivered the message which Lucas had made him to learn by heart and which we know subsequently arrived (likely via the US Military Attaché in Vichy signalled to Geneva and from there reaching London). He then made his way via Madrid and Lisbon to England. I (Mr. Harmer, M.I.5) asked him whether he thought he could possibly be known by the Germans to have come to England and he said that he did not think so as he was not included in any passenger list.
At the end I asked him what he thought was the reason for Victoire's attitude to us. I explained that it was not a question of mistrusting her but we were anxious to know whether her actions were dictated by patriotism, personal loyalty, self interest or in any other way. He said that he did not think any one of these could be said to be the real reason. He (Benoit) thought that there was a substratum (rock layer) of patriotism and that the immediate reason prompting her to act as she did were personal ones.
I (Mr. Harmer, M.I.5) subsequently spoke to Lucas about what had been said to the two wireless operators when they landed. → (page 45)
KV 2/927-3, page 45
He said that he had not told them anything about knowing that the transmitter was controlled, but he did warn them that there were German guards in the vicinity. He thought, however, that he might easily have known his this independently because they had heard a good deal of the movement in the vicinity (the hidden Germans watching what was happening).
(V7) (V7return) On 30.3.42 I (Mr. Harmer of M.I.5) spoke to Victoire about this and she filled in various details. She confirmed that at the time of the Vaas operation neither Lucas nor Benoit knew that she was controlled by the Germans. She said that she was driven there by Bleicher and a chauffeur and that she represented these two to Lucas as being two friends of hers, Bleicher being a Belgian (his French accent was thought Belgian like, but was a German, he had lived in Morocco and North Africa for quite a while) who was absolutely loyal to the allied cause. Afterwards they all went to a farm where Bleicher and the chauffeur went to sleep and Lucas and three other men and herself were all in the house with them. She pointed out that she could easily at that moment have had Bleicher liquidated and that fact that she did not, reinforced their faith in her. She said that on the 16th January they tried to arrest Miklos (well known French advocate/lawyer) and it was on the following day that she told Lucas everything. This is at variance with her previous story and it looks very much as if she has been discussing the matter with Lucas and knows that he has told an inconsistent story. She went on quickly to say that about January 5th she had tried to tell Lucas about it and said that she had something very important to say which would give him greater confidence in her but it was very difficult for her to explain, and that he had not seemed to be anxious to receive it and the matter had not (yet) been pursued. On January 31st the Lysander* operation was to have taken place at Estree St. Denis and she said that the Germans were not present at this operation because by that time they trusted her absolutely.
With regard to Benoit's departure, she confirmed that she had been made to promise that he would not leave in the boat and she explained that the Germans on February 14th had recovered from the sea two suitcases which had fallen in, one belonging to her and one belonging to Benoit. She amazed by their → (page 46)
* Maybe they meant the aircraft type: Westland-Lysander, which allowed the application of quite limited landing and taking-off facilities.
KV 2/927-3, page 46
stupidity in not realising that after all Benoit had intended to go but is quite sure that they did not draw this deduction. She said that the Germans accepted the explanation that Benoit had gone down to Spain to find an alternative method of leaving France.
B.1.a. (M.I.5) C. H. Harmer (Victoire's case officer, he was not particularly Victoire's supporter)
KV 2/927-3, page 49
KV 2/927-1, page 4 details of the minute sheets 69a and 71a
Please bear in mind what the backgrounds of these minutes were
Quoting from the foregoing page 49
30th March, 1942
Dear Cowgill (S.I.S.),
Two notes have been made made about the Lucas - Victoire case which I am inclosing. One is a report on the state of the case at 28.3.42 and the other note on the enquiries were have made regarding the essages which Lucas passed through Vichy (via the U.S. Military Attaché who transmitted it towards Genève from where it reached England). A copy of the letter that Pradier wrote to Lucas is attached to the first mentioned report.
You will see that our investigations lead us to the conclusion that Lucas and Victoire are playing straight with us. There is in addition, however, evidence which puts this I think almost beyond doubt. We know from the Most Secret Sources (RSS W/T message intercept, think of Bletchley Park decrypts) that on 12th March, 1942m the German Head Quarters in Paris were asked to put over certain information about a minefield near St. Malo. This identical information came through on the Victoire transmitter on March 17th.
I think we are entitled to assume that the Germans would not have passed this information through the Victoire channel unless they were fairly convinced that we did not know the transmitter was controlled. This interpretation would preclude the possibility of Victoire having been sent for the Germans and corresponding the possibility of a conspiracy between Victoire and Lucas is also ruled out.
KV 2/927-3, page 53
28th March, 1942
(KV 2/72 - KV 2/73)
Dear (name blanked, typically for M.I.6)
In connection with the telegram went in by the
on the subject of Walenty and a lawyer, I suggest sending off the following
"The authorities here (France) suggest that the lawyer of Walenty should try to investigate with the authorities which are holding Walenty whether there are possibilities of his exchange. Should this prove feasible, the authorities here would initiate the necessary (Sweden or Switzerland) procedure through the International Red Cross."
The dispatch of a telegram of a text similar to the above may give the possibility of obtaining the opinion of the German authorities, and I do not think it impossible that they would to the exchange of Walenty for some one who is in a British prison and whom they are anxious to have back.
I would be most interested to hear your opinion on the matter and to see whether you agree with me.
(Of course, name being blanked)
KV 2/928, PF 64216; jacket volume 3 (third file series)
KV 2/928-1, page 3
Dark clouds are building up
Victoire should be imprisoned!
In my perception, albeit not yet dealt with:- but Lucas had been caught by the Germans in the meantime, and his return to England, was therefore most unlikely.
And, Lucas' protection (shield) no longer existed, and the sentiments from some, in particular within M.I.5, saw their chance to execute their revenge.
This would not express my opinion: that there were no valid reasons, but the speed with which it was managed is quite astonishing me.
It should be noted, albeit dealt with later, that in particular it was M.I.5 who wanted to get rid of Madame Carré (Victoire); interesting, is, that S.O.E. insisted - that in the minute should be noted that decision taken was against their (S.O.E.) opinion!
20.6.42 To H.O. (Home Office) enclosing summary of Victoire case, with request for detention Order under Article (12 (5A) of the Aliens Order.
20.6.42 To A.D.B.1. (Mr. D.G. White of M.I.5) with report on Victoire, and arrangements for her internment and and suggestion that she might at some time be confronted with Adam and Maurice.
20.6.42 From A.D.B.1 in reply to (minute) 189b suggestion that grammatical mistakes in report should be corrected and that it should then go to S.I.S. and S.O.E. (AOB, found at KV 2/928-2, page on behalf of a Mr. G.St.C. Pilcher of S.L.A.(1), pages 29-32)
AOB, what can we derive from these few minutes? In my perception - that M.I.5 had been the driving (initiating) force behind it.
KV 2/928-1, page 10
The meeting came to the conclusion - although not without reluctance (AOB, S.O.E. expressed that they were not favouring Victoire's internment) - that Victoire ought to be interned in the interests of National security and, in particular, the security of our own secret services. I feel bound, therefore, to put forward to the Home Office, Consequently I am now submitting it to you
(a) for advice as to how best this could be done;
(b) for the preparation of the case in the way in which it appears to you necessary.
A.D.B.1. (M.I.5) D.G.White
Please bear always in mind - that the British files series are running in an inversed manner, thus: KV 2/928-3 is staring somewhere in May 42 whereas KV 2/928-1 starts about the first week of July 42. However, I will maintain the succession of the file orders.
KV 2/928-1, page 19
9th July, 1942 (notice that Victoire was imprisoned on 1st July about 17 hour)
Dear Foley (M.I.6, S.I.S. in particular),
Among the effects belonging to Victoire which were collected when she was taken
to Aylesbury (Prison)
is the unfinished manuscript of her memoirs. They are divided into four parts,
of which the first deals with her work for the French Red Cross during the first
year of the war, the second her work in the (Polish)
(KV 2/72 - KV 2/73)
organisation from from November 1940 to November 1941 (on
the 17/18th they were caught by the Germans),
the third contains the period of her collaboration with the
and the fourth concludes the book by recording her arrival in England.
About half of Part 2 has so far been completed (written in French language) and we are hoping that Victoire will finish this in her place of detention (H.M. Aylesbury Prison). I have made a summary of what she has already written and am sending you a copy of this herewith in case this advance information may be of interest. The complete version will, of course, follow in due course if Victoire will finish it.
We have handed a copy of this summary to Green (S.I.S.)
TAR for Major T.A. Robertson
KV 2/928-1, page 26
Dear Miss Mellanby,
Thank you for your letter to Mr. Mills, of 8th July 1942, enclosing the sum of 10360 francs, the property of Mathilde Carré (Victoire). I am changing this money into sterling, which I will bring her myself in the near future.
(AOB, likely typing error should be T.A. Robertson who, we know already wanted access to Victoire's manuscript extensions. T.A.R was, expressing a more polite and pro Victoire behaviour)
Miss M. Mellanby,
KV 2/928-1, pages 32 and 33
AOB: Albeit, that I am not a graphologist - her hand-writing expresses a quite strong personality and, likely of good education; and used to writing by hand
KV 2/928-1, page 39
Victoire is now safely installed at Aylesbury, where it is reported that she is is behaving like a little angel. Her letters to Mr. Harmer (M.I.5. - he, by God, was not particularly her friend) and Mr. Green (S.I.S.) appear to be written more in sorrow (sadness) than anger and her chief concern seems to be to have something to do.
There remains the question of deciding what to to with the remainder of her effects which were brought to this office at the time when her clothes were sent to Aylesbury (prison). A list of these immediately:-
Please read the rest yourself.
KV 2/928-1, page 40
continuing this work, to which end one copy of what she has written so far might be returned to her and one retained in this office. If on the other hand it is felt preferable that too much of this material should not be available at Aylesbury for the edification (enlightenment) of her other inmates, Part III might be retained in this office; but it is unlikely that she could complete Part II without having available the first half of this Part which is already been written. There would appear to be no danger in allowing her to have at Aylesbury Part I as this relates solely to her work in the French Red X (Cross) up to the time of the French Armistice.
The question remains for consideration whether, now that Victoire is held in a safe place (AOB, only being in touch with her wing-mates, but NOT with the other (regular) inmates of the Aylesbury prison), we should do anything to make her detention there as agreeable as possible. I understand that the life of prisoners at Aylesbury can be made more agreeable with small comforts if the prisoner has a little money to spend on them. In view of the good work Victoire has done for us in the past before she was caught by the Germans (she was engaged within a Polish spying network in France, known by the cover-name Walenty (Armand)), against which must be set her too ready collaboration with them after that date (18th November 1941), it is open for consideration whether it is worth paying her some small sum to provide for her comfort, and generally to informing her that while it has been found necessary to take the drastic step of interning her at Aylesbury, nevertheless we want to do what we can to make life as pleasant as possible for her while she is there, in order to do anything we can to secure he cooperation in completing he memoirs and, so far as possible, mitigate (ease) the bitterness which her enforced detention is bound to produce, having regard to such harm as she may be able to do to us at any future date.
We know Victoire has a diary recording the principal events during the period that she worked for Walenty and for the Germans. This has not so far come to light. It is probable therefore that it is somewhere in Captain LLoyd's flat and was not discovered when her effects were collected from the flat, on which occasion no attempt was made to undertake exhaustive search. I suggest, therefore, that Captain LLoyd should be informed that we have reason to believe that this is still somewhere in his flat and request him to try and find it and remit it to us. There are also two keys, one of which was found on the dressing-table with her poison. I do not know, if these belong to Victoire or to Captain LLoyd, and suggest that he should be asked whose property they are, as there is no point in depriving him of them if they belong to him and he wants them.
B.1.a (M.I.5)/ 7/7/42 Sgd: A.H. Robertson
AOB, wondering B.1.a being headed by Major T.A. Robertson; who is A.H. Robertson? I might nevertheless vaguely remember that there was a second Robertson engaged at M.I.5, but never thought of 2 Robertson's in the same office; or concerns it a typo?
The author of this letter is, in my perception, a bit wobbling with his feelings)
KV 2/928-1, page 61
3rd July 1942
B.1.a (= M.I.5) and T.A. Robertson's office
I confirm that Victoire was arrested on 1st July, 1942. She is now in Aylesbury Goal and arrangements have been made to keep her and other special cases entirely separate from the rest of the prisoners. Her papers are now under investigation and we will inform you if anything interesting comes to light.
On the same day we had our last contact on the radio (AOB: meant is Victoire W/T link with the Abwehr - or Orpo - organisation in Paris; likely guided by Bleicher). You already have a copy of the last message we sent, and a copy of their last message is now enclosed. You will see just managed to forestall (envision) them. (AOB, somewhere they noticed that they were preparing a final message to further close down this line with German controlled Paris)
There remains inn our office the suitcase containing the effects of Lucas which can be collected at any time you wish to have it. We will also get out the final accounts of the case as soon as possible and let you know what the final figure is (amount of money). (AOB: Lucas had been captured by the Germans in France, and would most likely not return)
The case now seems over bar the shouting. Thank you very much for your help at all times. I hope we shall have an opportunity of cooperating in the future on a case which turns out more succesfully.
C.H. Harmer (he was Victoire's case officer, who was not too much pleasant towards Victoire)
Major Maurice J. Buckmaster
KV 2/928-1, page 62
With reference to the statement made by Captain LLoyd to Masterman (known from "Double Cross" matters) about his association with Victoire, I have examined the evidence appearing on our files and, that and the personal knowledge I have of the circumstances as stated to me by Victoire, I have the following comments to make.
1. It is sure that Captain LLoyd became associated with Victoire through Doctor Herbert. Dr. Herbert is connected in some way to Scotland Yard besides being the resident doctor at Claridges. Victoire was originally taken to him by a Special Branch officer who was deputed to look after her (Victoire) and the man she was living with (Lucas) when they arrived in this country. After the return of this man (AOB, I would prefer to describe it his new mission into occupied France), Victoire complained about her health and obviously went to see Dr. Herbert in rather a nervous state. As a result, he recommended that she was in need of something to take her mind off her work and said that he would introduce her into artistic circle where she would feel at her ease. In pursuance of this introduced her, among other people, to a certain Mrs. Mayersohn, Captain LLyod and also Lord Shelborne, the Minister of Economic Warfare (MEW). The latter appears to have been very much attracted to Victoire and was about to entertain her when we intervened and stopped it as being undesirable in the circumstances. The relevant point, however, so far as Captain LLoyd is concerned, is that when he first met Victoire it was in company with various people including Lord Selborne, and in these circumstances it is not surprising that he accepted her from the start as being trustworthy and never stopped to question the fact. At the time the policy in regard to Victoire was to treat her as if we had complete trust in her and it is difficult to see how in these circumstances anybody would have had the cause to suspect Victoire of being a sinister person.
2. It is true that Captain LLoyd lent his flat to Victoire when he was about to leave London. By this time it is clear, from the evidence at our disposal, that he was very much attached by Victoire. The circumstances of their first meetings are apparently the following. On 13.5.42 he invited Victoire to his flat and was going to take her out to dinner afterwards. On arrival there she told him that another man (Christopher MacIntosh) (by the way, hired by M.I.5 to become in touch with Victoire, whether including sax is open; but after Victoire had been arrested Mr. MacIntosh received in cash £15 from M.I.5 for his services. Victoire called Mr. MacIntosh my "Uncle Tom"), mentioned by Captain LLoyd to Major Masterman) had rung her up to invite her out to dinner that night as he was leaving London on the following day and she would be very pleased if Captain LLoyd would → (page 63)
KV 2/928-1, page 63
invite him to the flat to have a drink. This was in fact done and later the three of them went out to dinner at Hatchettes. Dr. Herbert and Mrs. Mayersohn were there also. They later went on to a night club where, according to Victoire's account, both the men vied (competed) with one another for the favours, and eventually she went with Mr. MackIntosh (the latter was put on her on behalf of M.I.5; when she was arrested and had arrived at Aylesbury Prison, he earned £15 in cash additionally to his other expenses. Victoire called him "my Uncle Tom" which for some time puzzled M.I.5; who was he actually?) to the great annoyance of Captain LLoyd. Nevertheless, on the following day our telephone check disclosed that he rang at the flat (where Victoire then lived) at 10 o'clock; later in the evening (name being blanked) disclose that he brought her back to the flat in an intoxicated condition (drunk) condition. On 15.5.42 telephone checks reveal that LLoyd sent her flowers and arranged to take her to the cinema that night. Finally, however, he arrived too late and they went out together for the evening. (again name being blanked) reveal that they came back that evening and Captain LLoyd spent the majority of the night there. (AOB, was he, maybe, Lloyd's driver, or was this anonymous person, someone secretly watching (shadowing) Victoire?) On 16.5.42 Victoire moved into Captain LLoyd's flat, and he apparently left on that day for North Wales (he was servicing in a Welsh Guard regiment). She told me (who is is, is he the same person whose names have been deleted twice) at the time the time that he was going away "en mission" and that he had told her that she could have his flat flat for the rest of the war as he would not want it.
3.It appears from evidence that this lending the flat to Victoire was not prompted entirely by quixotic (unrealistic) generosity. It is quite clear that he was Victoire's lover, and also pretty clear that she was going to provide him with copy. On 18.5.42 he rang her up from North Wales and we have a complete copy of the conversation. (K)
when you would like to skip the next correlated minutes 155abc and 157c you can directly continue at (J)
KV 2/928-1, page 8: Jumping first to the according minutes 155a - 155c
18.5.42 Further note from Mrs. S. Barton re 155 aab. (Mrs S. Barton was once Victoire's housekeeper; was she the M.I.5 informant? AOB, I know that Mrs. S. Barton was in charge of her flat which one was possessed by M.I.5; you may agree that she is the most likely anonymous person noticed before!)
KV 2/928-3, page 66 Considering now the particular minutes in the 155 abc series
Mayfair 1531 (the telephone number of the apparent M.I.5 owned flat at the London Mayfair district; where also Mrs. S. Barton resided the house hold)
18.5.42 (cylinder (track) 1)
Call for Mr. MackIntosh (the M.I.5 informant, whom she called "my Oncle Tom" and likely also had some sexual affairs; however, there existed also a Tom Greene, who also was called "Uncle Tom"). Is told he is away etc.
(cylinder (track) 2) 9.33.p.m.
Call for Victoire from North Wales from Richard Llewellyn (LLoyd)
R. Hello there. Un moment.
R. Belle Lavina (?)
V. Yes. Hello, hello etc.
R. Ici Richard
V. Mais jái reconnu votre voix. Ou etes vous?
R. ... trois cents ... away from you.
V. Oh oui, vous etes siloin, je vous avez recu la lettre que je vous ai ecrit? (thus Victoire wrote him a letter in the meantime)
R. Ah aujourd 'hui.
R. Mais demain.
V. A bon, parceque vous avez que je suis tres triste.
R. Oh, pourquoi?
V. Parceque le Docteur Herbert me dit hier que vous etiez un peu (??) et que pas vous reviendrez a Londres. Vous aurez oublier que je suis ... chez vous, Do you understand?
R. Uh - uh.
V. Que vous aurez oublie et qu'alors je serais un embarras pour vous et il faudra que je parte et que cela fera beaucoup dénnui pour moi. Do you understand?
R. Oui. Alors - what do I want to say. Don't worry about him.
R. Don't worry about him, the doctor or anybody else.
V. Je ne comprenes pas mais je suis tres triste.
R. Oh, ma belle - vous recevu un lettre?
(AOB, here I quit the transcribed telephone tap)
KV 2/928-3, page 71 ( telephone tap at Mayfair 7474, minute 155b)
18.5.42 Cylinder (track) 30)
Victoire rings Mr. Christopher M (= MackIntosh, M.I.5's agent entertained Victoire, on a "paid for" basis), she leaves message asking him to telephone between 5 and 7 at Mayfair 1531 (Victoire's current telephone number) and gives her new address. (cylinder destroyed) (Her new M.I.5. address where Mrs. S. Barton is keeping the household? I suppose not yet Richard Lloyd's address?)
KV 2/928-1, page 63
(J) repeating paragraph 3
3. It appears from evidence that this lending the flat to Victoire was not prompted entirely by quixotic (unrealistic) generosity. It is quite clear that he was Victoire's lover, and also pretty clear that she was going to provide him with copy. On 18.5.42 he rang her up from North Wales and we have a complete copy of the conversation. On 23.5.42 he (Richard LLoyd) telegraphed telegraphed her, saying "Arriving about 8 o'clock. Love Chat Noir" Telephone checks reveal that he spends the nights 23.5.42, 25.5.42 and 26.5.42 in the flat with her, or at least there is strong evidence to this effect since on each occasion he asked the telephone exchange to give his number to a call at 8 o'clock, and answered at that time. (L) (AOB, may we consider that this all took place at Lloyd's own flat, whereas the himself lived at the Savoy?)
KV 2/928-3, page 63 (answering the query about her current flat with Mrs. S. Barton being her house maid)
20th May, 1942
Confirming my telephone conversation with regard to flat 603, Stratford Court, Oxford Street, W.I, the occupant of this flat is now living at Flat A, 32 Upper Brook Street London W.1 She has been lent this flat and I should be obliged if you would transfer the telephone 7474, Extension 603m to Mayfair 1531, the number of the new flat.
With regard to the (house-maid / keeper Mrs. S. Barton?) at Flat 603 Stratford Court (M.I.5's?), I should be able to let you have definite information about this very shortly. I would, however, like the (H.O.W.?) kept on for the time being in cases she returns to this flat.
for Major T.A. Robertson
C.P. Saffery, Esq.,
General Post Office.
(AOB, The Home Office had to grant an Order for watching someone, thereafter GPO had been informed and ordered to tap a particular telephone number and often also retain all mails to a particular address)
(L) continuing the file KV 2/928-1, page 63 (AOB, may we consider that this all took place at Lloyd's own flat, whereas the himself lived at the Savoy? No yet partially, as he started to stay at the Savoy on the 27th)
Richard Vivian Llewellyn Lloyd arrived at the Savoy Hotel on 27.5.42 and departed on 24.6.42
This is the only occasion on which Lieut. Lloyd has stayed at the Savoy Hotel. I understand his usual address in London is Claridges Hotel.
continuing with KV 2/928-1, page 63
4. It is quite true that he lived at the Savoy. Telephone checks reveal that he booked a single room there on 27.5.42 (see reference above)
5. Although we have no way of proving that he (LLoyd) was in fact trying to get her out of his flat, the evidence points in this direction since it is quite clear that he was to some extent losing interest in her, and she was feeling it as she discussed the matter on the telephone with a Czech man to whom she complained of his lack of emotion, and they both also fixed up independently → (page 64)
KV 2/928-1, page 64 Concluding this Chapter 2
evening appointment with other people without apparently notifying each other in fact. From the 1st June conversations between Captain LLoyd and Victoire on the telephone become noticeably fewer, and it appears that on several occasions when he went to the flat he was accompanied by this secretary.
6. There is no evidence about Captain LLoyd's reasons for ultimately going to live in the flat and giving up his room at the Savoy except the statements made to me by Victoire. She had, from the moment she moved into the flat told me that there had been trouble with Captain LLoyd's friends, who had been very jealous of her, and that several of them, and in particular the doctor (Herbert), had tried to stir (stimulating) up troubles between them. When I (Mr. Harmer M.I.5?) returned and saw her on 26.6.42 (a few days before her arrest on 1st July 1942), she informed me that the doctor and the circle of friends into which he had introduced her were making such unpleasant remarks about Captain LLoyd that he had decided to have no more nonsense and not to try and keep up with her. Evidence on our telephone checks bears out the fact that there was trouble among the mutual friends of Victoire and Captain LLoyd because of the arrangement whereby Victoire had come to live in the flat.
7. Captain LLoyd's information
the M.I.5 informant put against Victoire,
by M.I.5), Oncle Tom and myself is not
quite accurate, since the informer (MackIntosh)
has no connection with the Intelligence Service
(but he earned afterwards
for his services!)
His information about the latter I wrote her is correct. She was
apparently alone on her birthday (30th
June 1942) (just
the day before she had been arrested)
8. There is no evidence on our files, or from any of the checks, to show that at any time Captain LLoyd was guilty of indiscretion to Victoire.
B.1.a C.H. Harmer (her M.I.5 case officer, who was not directly her friend)
3.7.42 (Victoire was already kept at the Aylesbury Goal)
Closure of Chapter 2
Chapter 3 New
KV 2/928-1, page 66
Secret & Personal
B.2. (Major Maxwell Knight)
You know the broad details of the facts of the case in which, through the good offices of Gilson, MacIntosh (the letter one who entertained Victoire and got paid for ultimately £15) on of our special agents (Carré @ Victoire). He has not actually seen her now for a month, but prior to that he entertained her on several occasions and must have disbursed a considerable amount of money. Gilson suggested that an contribution we might make to his expenses would be welcome, but MacIntosh (MackIntoch) (called by Victoire "my Oncle Tom") himself has told us that he does not expect anything and that he was only too pleased to do this for us (AOB, and for the pleasure to himself!).
At a joint conference of all Intelligence departments concerned, it was decided about three weeks ago to intern the lady in question (Victoire) on the grounds that she was far too unreliable ever top be allowed out of the country and that in this country she would be, on her past record, a menace to security. She was in fact arrested yesterday afternoon.
This morning Harmer was MacIntosh and informed him of the internment and explained roughly the position to him, and thanked him for what he had done. With regard to his expenses, we would like to make a contribution of £15, and this sum is enclosed in cash. At the same tie we would be glad if you express to MacIntosh again our appreciation for his services. Harmer has explained, and he quite understands, that her internment will in no way reflect on him and that all reference to him in our files will be deleted (a real lie! How could we know about him when all had be, indeed, deleted?) so that he will not appear in our records as having been mixed up with somebody who later was interned as a person who was a menace to security.
B.1.a. T.A. Robertson, Major
KV 2/928-1, page 67
I interviewed Captain LLoyd at Room 055 at 16.45 hours on the 1st July, 1942 (actually just 15 minutes before Victoire had been arrested). I explained to him that Mme. de Roche (one of Victoire's cover-names) was being arrested that afternoon and being conveyed to prison. This was the decision of the various secret Departments which had been concerned with her case.
I made it clear that I (Mr. Masterman) had not been personally responsible for any part of the case and that it was not for me to decide whether she was guilty or innocent, but that I had received orders to acquaint him with what had occurred what had occurred because she was living in his flat, and also that I had interviewed his Brigadier yesterday and explained the situation to him. I said that I have no wish to know how much he knew of Victoire's story and that he need tell me nothing unless he wished to.
He said that he was perfectly ready to discuss the whole matter, and that in any case he would like to tell me the outline of his acquaintance with Victoire. He said that he had been introduced to her by a Dr. Herbert, who had urged him to be friendly to her as she had done great services to the country and had escaped from France. When therefore Victoire told him that she was uncomfortable in her flat, he had, in an unwise burst of generosity, offered her his own flat as he was back with his battalion and was also just about to take a week's leave in North Wales. He supposed that she would occupy the flat for about a week, but found it impossible to suggest to her that she should leave when he returned. He therefore went to live at Savoy, and only visited his own flat occasionally to see how things were going. He had for some little time been anxious to get rid of her and had made up his mind that the arrangement could not go on much longer.
A little while ago Victoire had complained that she needed protection, and he had for some nights slept on the floor of his (own) flat.
He said that he did not doubt that she was a useful member of the British Service; he had run into Christopher MacIntosh (member of some section of M.I.5. whom was paid for entertaining Victore eventually sleeping with her), and an older gentleman whom Victoire called → (page 68)
KV 2/928-1, page 68
"mon oncle Tom". He also knew that another (that the other) officer called Christopher (meant is Christopher H. Harmer, her M.I.5 case officer) had taken her a good deal. She had received a letter from this officer which had worried her as she had decided to come out with her for her celebration and wrote as though he had some knock-out blow (so she said). (AOB, Christopher MacIntosh was an M.I.5 officer, and might have known what was due to happen with her)
Victoire had asked Captain Lloyd about her reminiscences (recollections) (probably concerning her memoirs), and had shown them to him. He had said that he had no time to translate them, but that if she could get leave from her department (apparently thought Mr. LLoyd that she was engaged at some office) to have them published, and if they were interesting, he would assist her by recommending her to his publisher. He had seen but not read the document.
I discussed the practical steps to be taken with Captain LLoyd, and we agreed
that on the whole it would be better if we were present when Victoire's things
were packed at his flat. He said that he did not mind at all whether he
was there or whether our people (likely
M.i.5 and Special Branch incorporated)
simply collected her things; but I said that I thought it would be more
satisfactory to all parties if he were present, and he therefore decided to go
at once to the flat and await the arrival of our people, whom he was prepared to
help in any way that he could. He would telephone to Brigadier
from his flat and tell him that he would go to see him as soon as he could.
I had previously advised him to see the Brigadier as soon as possible.
I then rang up Brigadier Nevile, told him what had occurred and said that he might expect to get a call from Captain LLoyd.
B.1.a. J.C. Masterman (Oreturn)
KV 2/928-1, page 71
Victoire addresses a letter to her M.I.5 case officer, of whom we know now - that his name was Christopher H. Harmer
My wife Karin was so kind to translate its content into English language; of only a few words she could not read
... means not readable
KV 2/928-1, page 72
another letter was addressed onto: Monsieur Tom Grim "my Oncle Tom"
This name was not Christopher MacIntosh, but Tom Grim!
KV 2/928-1, page 73
We have seen her hand-writing before (M) (Preturn), but here we encounter two letters written under stress and emotions
... meant that my wife Karin couldn't read Victoire's emotional hand-writing.
KV 2/928-1, page 82
(J12) ↓↓ (J12return)
Victoire will be served with the detention Order today and will be arrested at 17.00 hours. The actual procedure for carrying this into effect will be the following:-
1. Victoire will be collected at 16.45 at Upper Brook Street (likely the flat of Mr. LLoyd) by Mr. Robertson and Mr. Horsfall and will be driven to Scotland Yard, Embankment entrance. In the entrance hall they will be met by Colonel Hinchley-Cooke (SLB 3??) (we have encountered him in many spying affairs in 1940/41, before) who will will then take charge of Victoire, and will interview her in the waiting room and inform her that she is to be interned for the duration of the war.
2. The police are making arrangements for the immediate arrest thereafter of Victoire and for taking her to Aylesbury Prison. She will leave Scotland Yard immediately after her arrest and will not return to her (actually Mr. Richard LLoyd's flat) flat.
3. The Home Office have confirmed to Mr. Pilcher that they have made arrangements for her reception at Aylesbury Prison this evening. The other people to be imprisoned in the special wing there have already arrived.
4. At 16.45 an appointment has been fixed for Major Masterman to see Lt. LLoyd (O) (Oreturn) at Room 055. After explaining the position, it is requested that Major Masterman ask Lt. LLoyd to ring up his flat and inform the maid (Miss S. Barton) there that Victoire has got to leave London urgently and the someone will be coming round to pack her things. Lt. LLoyd should also ask the maid to give Mrs. S. Barton (she was employed by M.I.5 and also served Victoire at foregoing addresses! ) assistance in packing up Victoire's clothes and so forth, and it is suggested that he himself should be advised mot to return to the flat before about 7 o'clock in the evening. (AOB, Mr. Masterman's foregoing noticed talk with Mr. LLoyd pointed in contrast differently; but this paper must be considered being the script)
5. After leaving Victoire at Scotland Yard, Mr. Horsfall (AOB, I have encountered this latter name before but don't know in what context) and Mr. Robertson should pick up Mrs S. Barton* (Victoire's "maid") and take her along to the flat, arriving there not before 17.15. All her things should be gone through and in particular the following should be gone through and in particular the following confiscated for examination:
a) A copy she has of the instructions given to Lucas before he left the country.
b) A copy of the various messages which have passed via the Victoire transmitter (communicated with the Abwehr in Paris)
c) A copy of the note on her first interrogation, which I believe she still has.
d) The part of the book of her life story which relates to her association with Walenty (KV 2/72-KV 2/73).
e) Her diary in which the various events during last winter are recorded.
f) Various maps and documents which I know she possesses which have reference to her collaboration with the Germans.
g) Any letters she may have kept from Mr. Green (S.I.S.) or me (TAR) should be taken away from her. In this respect she may have in her possession, two notes which I have written her.
In addition all her literary efforts and papers should be confiscated for a time with a view to examining them to see what they contain. The typewriter in the flat is my property and should be returned to me.
6. When Victoire's things have been packed up Mr. Horsfall will take them and leave them at Aylesbury Prison later this evening. I will try and get message for the Police to leave at this Prison when they hand over Victoire to the effect that her luggage will be following by a separate car.
B.1.a. Christopher H. Harmer (her M.I.5 case officer)
Copies to Major Masterman, Mr. Robertson, Mr. Horsfall and Mrs. S. Barton * (Mrs S. Barton was for a while Victoire's maid - and - employed on behalf of M.I.5 - and also an informant on behalf of her employer)
KV 2/928-1, page 91
Mayfair 1531 (Llod's telephone-number)
1.7.42 (cylinder (track) 123) (AOB, Consequently these telephone calls had nothing to do wherefore the H.O. granted once a tapping Order!)
Richard Llewelyn (LLoyd) rings (his) Brigadier Nevile who asks him to come up and see him.
2.7.42 (cylinder (track) 124)
R.L's batman (servant?) rings Fortum & Mason and orders beer.
Elizabeth rings xxx and speaks to Susan (& cylinder (track) 12)
KV 2/928-1, page 91
28th June, 1942
Dear Commander Dunderdale (S.I.S),
It was always your intension I know if possible to close down the Victoire transmitter with a good message (AOB, a message denigrating the German Service?). I do not know whether you will approvae of the enclosed, but it is my effort to achieve a very small blow against our friends even if it is only on paper.
Could you let me know whether you have any objection during the course of Monday as we (M.I.5) want to send it off on Tuesday.
Commander W.A. Dunderdale, C.M.G., M.B.E., R.N.V.R.,
KV 2/928-2, page 7 Jumping to the next to the next section - we get a real point when ultimately Lucas and Victoire reached London; albeit, that I only reproduce paragraph 13.
On the night of 26/27th February, 1942, as the result of an S.O.E. operation,
Victoire & Lucas returned (Victoire
arrived for the first time)
to this country. Lucas was considered by S.O.E. to be so important an agent
that, notwithstanding the fact that he was known by sight to the Germans, that
they had watched the operation whereby he had been taken away from France and of
course all his meetings with Victoire, it was decided that she should go back to
France again. He and Victoire came back with a cut and dried proposal for
returning to France and poisoning Bleicher (Hugo
Ernst Bleicher, PF 800861, KV 2/164-KV 2/166 and KV 2/2127)
officer who guided Victoire on the Abwehr side),
after which the R.A.F. could bomb the prison where (Armand)
Walenty and the other agents were held thus enabling them to escape, and that
they should then both escape, and that they should both escape themselves into
the unoccupied zone (Vichy
disguise their identities and return to France to build up a new organisation.
This proposal was not accepted by S.O.E. who wanted Lucas to return after having
himself & contact the members of his organisation who he left behind (some of
these were naturally known to the Germans and were accordingly lying? in
conditions of the utmost danger). The function of M.I.5. was to go
into the credentials of Victoire and examine her story, and also to cover
the return of Lucas by traffic on the (Victoire's)
transmitter suggesting that he was coming back at a later date under his
real identity (quite
rubbish, as Lucas was already an alias).
We were, however, precluded from doing and sort of hostile interrogation
of Victoire because it was essential, if the plans of S.O.E. were to be put into
effect, that Lucas should not be offended. She was accordingly
therefore feted (eminent)
and entertained, and her story was extracted from her by gentle persuasion but
it naturally still incomplete. She has recently completed a 150 page
account of her collaboration with the
which is under examination.
(AOB, again, that the situation went like this, was also caused by the fact that it was known in England that Lucas had been caught by the Germans; and the chance of returning to England was 'NIL')
KV 2/928-2, page 8
* quoting of minute 180a: 11.6.42 B.1.a. note on meeting held on 6.6.42 (Q) (Qreturn)
KV 2/928-2, page 8c+9a
Crown Copyright 2 x
KV 2/928-2, page 10 (AOB, Leaving beside the foregoing pro and cons about her true position in England and her French past, I chose for repeating paragraph 20)
20. The foregoing explanation has been given in order to give you the facts with in view to making your address (charges) to her. It is suggested by us (B.1.a. of M.I.5) that this address should be to the effect that having come to this country as a person who had collaborated with the Germans, the British would have have been entitled to take drastic action against her. However, since she is maintained that her collaboration had been with the object of outwitting (outmanoeuvring) them, and told a (her) story showing that she had no option in the matter, it was agreed by the Intelligence Service that her story should be exhaustively checked from independent sources and in the meantime she should be allowed liberty and treated with comparative generosity (AOB, Mr. Harmer is by-passing the very fact that she was allowed liberty because she was then well regarded French S.O.E. agent Lucas! It is as if Lucas never constituted the nucleus of this entire drama); that since the time many inquiries had been made and information received from independent sources which leads us to the conclusion that she has made very considerable mis-statements about the circumstances leading up to her collaboration with the Germans and the manner in which she worked for them. In particular that we have independent evidence that she originally betrayed Lucas voluntarily and was also responsible for betraying certain agents employed by the Vichy Government, the existence of whom she has not divulged (revealed) to us; that for this reason the previous decision of the Intelligence Service has been cancelled; that the matter has been considered by all various branches of the Intelligence Service and the civil authorities; that it has been decided that having once collaborated with the Germans she can never be allowed again to go anywhere she could possibly contact them and that, moreover, her continued liberty in this country is too dangerous to be allowed and that therefore she is being served with an (H.O.) Order, the enforcement of which will be internment.
B.1.a. C.H. Harmer (by the way, Victoire's former M.I.5 guiding Servant)
KV 2/928-2, page 11 (AOB, the preceding page 12 has already been dealt with elsewhere)
Mr. A.H. Robertson through T.A.R (AOB, this is partly solving our forgoing contradiction of the Mrss T.A. Robertson and A.H. Robertson whom was also engaged at the same B.1.a. office)
1. A (Home Office) 12(5A) Order against Victoire has now been made and the remaining problem is the execution of it. In view of the various details which will have to be arranged before Victoire can be finally interned, it will probably be some before the matter is completed. The various steps which have to be taken are set out in the following paragraphs.
2. It has been decided that Colonel Hinchley-Cooke should be asked to address Victoire on the service of the Order. This will entail a "brief" to him and the answering of any questions which he may put about the case. I have prepared a note for him about the case and have passed the files to him. The form of address which he gives Victoire must of course be left to him, but I have outlined in the "brief" the lines upon which we think it should be made.
3. At the present moment Victoire is living with Lt. LLoyd Welsh Guards, with whom she is also cooperating in certain literary activities. It will be necessary, at the same time that the Order is served on her and she is taken away, to have Lt. LLoyd seen by somebody. It has been agreed that Major Masterman should be asked to do this. (Major Masterman, albeit he himself was not engaged at all in this case) In my opinion the meeting with Lt. LLoyd should take place contemporaneously with the arrest of Victoire.
4. The actual procedure for the arrest, I think, be that Victoire be escorted to Scotland Yard where she will be interviewed by Colonel Hinchley-Cooke, and perhaps other officers, to give the appearance of a court-martial. She will then be told why she is being interned, and the Order will be served and she will be escorted back to the flat by a woman Police Officer. I think it might also be advisable to have Mrs. S. Barton (who served as Victoire's made, but was in some way imbedded at M.I.5 and she spied upon Victoire!) in at this stage as she will know what, if anything, Victoire shall not be allowed to take with her. The arrangements for her transportation to the appropriate prison will, I (Mr. Harmer) assume, be made by the Police. It will be necessary, however, to find out from Mr. Pilcher (S.L.A.1) what prison she will actually go to and this may also hold up the execution of the Order. Mr. Pilcher.
5. On her arrest I think all documents dealing with the case should be taken off her, and in particular the following:- (we have already delt with these details, I therefore skip them)
KV 2/928-2, page 21 (AOB, I consider the complexity actually get the legally signed H.O. order is worth to be noticed)
Mr. Clayton of the Home Office, (Scotland Yard) WHI.1212, Ext 522 rang up about 'Victoire'.
He said that an awkward situation has arisen with regard to the sighing of the Order (12(5A)) against her. The Home Office Secretary was out of the country for the moment and although a box was being sent to meet him at this port of arrival to-morrow - Friday - at the earliest we could not receive the actual signed Order until Saturday. Mr. Clayton enquired whether this would be too long to wait before arresting 'Victoire' for if so he could, if absolutely necessary, get another Minister to sign the Order. He was, however, very reluctant to do this because he felt that Mr. Morrison would not like it. Mr. Clayton asked for an answer in 10 minutes as the box was just about to be dispatched to the Home Secretary's port of arrival. He also asked me what was to be done if the Order were signed (either by Mr. Morrison or the S. of S. (Secretary of State) of War. before the special accommodation had been arranged for Victoire and her future companions (these companions had nothing directly to with Victoire's case, but concerned women whom have had in touch, in someway, with the German Secret Services). I said that Mr. Hoare was dealing with that question and it was arranged that while I was asking B.1.a. (Major T.A. Robertson's section) about whether Saturday would be too late for the arrest of Victoire, Mr. Clayton would go and ask Mr. Hoare what could be be done if the special accommodation had not been fixed up at Holloway or Aylesbury.
I spoke to Mr. Harmer, B.1.a. who said that for various reasons he would rather wait till the Home Secretary could sign the Order (12(5A)) himself.
I then rang Mr. Clayton again and gave him Mr. Harmer's (he was Victoire's case officer) reply. He had in the meanwhile spoken to Mr. Hoare, and as a result was able to say that if Victoire was detained before the special accommodation had been arranged, some arrangement would be made for her to be kept in a room by herself - incommunicado (not in contact).
S.L.A. (1) Sgd Mr Buxton
(AOB, please bear always in mind, that the British file-successions are, curiously, running inverse in time. Thus beginning with the most recent and when progressing you go back in time)
KV 2/928-2, page 65
11th June 1942.
John Senter (Lieut. Commander S.O.E.), has reported to me the meeting attended by yourself, Harmer and T.A. Robertson of your organisation, Dunderdale Green and Foley of S.I.S. and Keswick, Maurice Buckmaster and John Senter representing us (S.O.E.). I understand that it is material for you in considering putting up an application for the effective internment of Victoire that you should have from us assessment of her danger to our Security. That is set out in the following five paragraphs. From my own knowledge of the case, I desire to confirm of view of our Security, that she should be under the maximum control until the end of the War.
1. Although most of the S.O.E.- trained members of the Lucas group are now believed to be under arrest by the Germans (and, therefore, it could be argued that any talk by Victoire could not harm them further) there remains one member of this group in the field who is still free and who is known to Victoire, also another who has recently returned to the field with whom she has been in close contact.
2. The locally-recruited members of the group are still at liberty, and working for us in greater or less degree according to the amount of their surveillance. In particular, two close associates of Lucas, who are known to Victoire, are actively continuing their organisations.
3. We consider it most undesirable (disagreeable) that Victoire, who has first-hand knowledge of S.O.E. Policy in France, acquired from Lucas himself, should be left in a position to divulge (disclose) this knowledge to outside parties.
4. Whilst we have limited her acquisition of knowledge about our H.Q. organisation in the ordinary manner, we do not know how much Lucas, in his more intimate moments, may have revealed. We have evidence that, though he did not trust Victoire implicitly, his security-mindedness was not on a very high level.
5. We have proof that Victoire is utterly unscrupulous, and we feel that she would not hesitate to use, in the most obnoxious (intolerable) manner, any information which she had acquired as to the methods of the Intelligence Services. (Amen)
addressed onto Mr. D.G. White, M.I.5.
AOB, my dilemma is, what is still relevant to bring it to your attention?
KV 2/928-2, page 67 (partially) (Minute 180a once referred onto) (Q) (Qreturn)
A meeting was held on 9.6.42 at St James's (M.I.5 Head-Office) at which the following were present:-
Major Maurice Buckmaster
Lieut. Commander Senter
Major Robertson (TAR)
Mr. A.H. Robertson
The various point which came up for discussion and which were dealt with were the following.
1. Future use of the Walenty Transmitter (AOB, this one was actually Victoire's responsibility, though maintained by M.I.5)
It was decided that the best thing that could be done with this would be to close it down. M.I.5 submitted a draft message, the object of which was a last move to try and get the agent René out of the occupied zone and give him an opportunity of escaping. The message was approved in principle subject to (a) the alteration whereby the German should be asked to state the date on which René would be at the café. Commander Dunderdale said that the Poles might like to attend at the café and see that René does escape and it was agreed that they should be informed when we send the message.
The possibility was reviewed of exposing the misdeeds of Bleicher and the
AOB, weren't these professional guys not
better informed?), either as an objective
in itself or as a means to make them release Walenty and Lucas. It was
agreed that Commander Dunderdale (S.I.S.)
would ask the Poles whether they saw any possibilities of doing something along
these lines and M.I.5 would prepare a draft of the various matters to which
publicity could be given so far as the German Gestapo (S.D.)
officers were concerned.
KV 2/928-2, page 68 + 69a
The discussion principally centred around these two suggestions. The first being that she (Victoire) should off with a fairly generous present and told to look after herself, and the second that she should be interned. I (Mr. Harmer) reported that she was writing a book, the fourth part of which she had stated to me was going to be an exposure of what she considered to be the malfeasances of S.O.E., and that she was therefore potentially dangerous. After considerable discussion Commander Dunderdale said that in his opinion unless we were prepared to liquidate Victoire altogether, it would be wise not to intern her because would thereby be making an enemy of her for life and she might be able after the war to do immense damage to the British Intelligence Service since she was an extremely clever woman. He thought, moreover, that her book about the German methods might be very valuable if it were completed. He thought it would be wiser to giving her a present. This, however, was opposed by Colonel Keswick (S.O.E.) who expressed the view that we were under no obligation to her for what she has done in this country and that she was too dangerous to be allowed her liberty in this country. Mr. White (M.I.5) said that if she were interned in an ordinary camp in the Isle of Man, there was probably as much danger of leakage of information as if she were free in London with, however, the added incentive (motivation) to reveal the information. He therefore, proposed a compromise whereby Victoire would be paid off and told that if she let out any details about the work sje had been doing, she would be interned, and that we should then continue to keep her under observation. This suggestion was opposed by S.O.E. who stated that she had valuable information about their plans and organisation and that the only safe course was to intern her. Mr. White said that if she were interned it would have to be done in the most thorough way possible.
It was ultimately decided that S.O.E. would submit a case for interning Victoire, upon which M.I.5 would be bound to make recommendations to the Home Office advising her internment under a 12(5A) Order. Commander Dunderdale asked that there should be put on record that fact that S.I.S had no primary reasons for wanting Victoire interned and that the only information of real value in her possession which she could give away was the fact that another transmitter which was still working was known by us to be controlled by the Germans.
KV 2/928-3, page 73 (AOB, the following reference is of quite significance, as it is signed by S. Barton, whereas Mrs. S. Barton is her maid, and the tone and way of expressing, is showing some intimate knowledge, she therefore has to be Mrs. S. Barton her maid; who was, by the way, paid by M.I.5)
In view of Richard Llewellyn LLoyd's astonishing offer to lend an exceedingly nice flat to a woman he hardly knows I (Mrs. S. Barton, M.I.5's external house-keeping maid) had been wondering whether L1.L1 (= Llewellyn LLoydd) might possibly be acting at Lord Shelborn's instigation as they are both friends of Dr. Herbert. I have, however, since come to the conclusion that that is not the case and that L1.L1. is either slightly mad or very much in love, probably both.
I have come to this conclusion because Victoire saw Dr, Herbert and his fiancé, the painter, yesterday afternoon and told me (Mrs. S. Barton her maid) afterwards that both are jealous of her (Victoire) for having got round L1.L1. to the extent she has and are insinuating things against L.1L.1. It therefore seems to me that although Dr. Herbert introduced them to each other he had no idea how far L1.L1. would go. Victoire tells me (Mrs. S. Barton) that Dr. Herbert, who is apparently a friend of the "chief" of Scotland Yard and has been told certain things about her (Victoire) by this "chief" (linked to Scotland Yard; likely briefed by M.I.5), has certainly not repeated them to L1.L1.
I (Mrs S. Barton, Victoire's maid, employed in some respect by M.I.5) also asked Victoire about Lord Shelborne (Minister of MEW). She became mysterious, said she was not allowed to speak about it and tried to convey the impression to me (Mrs. S. Barton, M.I.5's external house-keeping maid) that he is still seeing her surreptitiously (secretly). I can hardly believe this, however.
I also asked her what news she had from France. She calmly said they seemed to her bad but thank goodness she was installed in this new flat.
We have entered now the end of the KV 2/928 series, and should approach the KV 2/929 series, which, however, as far as visible - is concerning financial matters, which are not relevant in our context.
Chapter (4) Supplement
KV 2/930-1, page 2
15.7.43 To S.O.E. that Victoire is being transferred from Aylesbury to Holloway (Prison) Minute 297a
16.7.43 From Holloway Prison enclosing original letter from Victoire to Colonel Hinchley Cooke dated 14/7 Minute 299a (AOB, quite curious that even letters addressed onto officials, even the one chosen to actually arrested her on 1st July 1942. They felt themselves above the law; which grey field they did not dare!)
KV 2/930-2, page 132
I also reminded the meeting that S.O.E. had taken no exceptions to the repatriation of My Eriksson (legally Swedish) (in some respect also an appalling case, were legality was often not met!) in exchange for an agent of S.I.S. who had been captured by the Germans. This point came up some four month ago and various aspects of this exchange were then discussed, It was pointed that My Eriksson had been in constant touch with Victoire since their earliest days of internment (1st July 1942). Commander Senter (S.O.E.) said that he thought it was important that Eriksson should not be told in advance that she was to be repatriated for fear least this information should get to Victoire and that between them Victoire should then be able to get information to the Germans through My Eriksson (KV 2/535 - KV 2/539; PF 47928). I understood to look into this and it was this became apparent, be removed from the other four internees.
B.1.a. T.A. Robertson (Lt. Colonel) (he apparently promoted)
KV 2/930-2, page 135
There is one other point which you mentioned to me and that is that S.I.S. and S.O.E. have agreed to offer My Eriksson in exchange for an S.I.S. agent who was captured by the Germans (all premature time spending, My Eriksson left England in August 1945!). I suppose Boyle realises that My Eriksson has been in the closest possible touch with Victoire during her stat at Aylesbury. I have discussed the mechanics of this exchange can be stopped, I do not know, neither is Mr. Milmo in a position to advise me as it is an S.I.S. responsibility.
Milmo raised one extremely good point which should, I think, be put to Boyle, namely, what damage can Victoire in fact do at the present moment to the S.I.S. cause. The details she could give may about other people's cases are, to say the least of it, small.
There is just one point where, I think, Boyle is slightly in error and that is when he refers to Lucas' brother. Lucas (once Victoire's lover, when both arrived in England) in fact has two brothers both of whom were working for S.O.E. One has not been heard of for some time and the other one was arrested by the Germans and was sentenced to three years imprisonment in absentio. This means that he has presumably escaped and is not in the hands of the enemy. Boyle's interpretation on of "being at large" is slightly inaccurate.
B.1.a. T.A. Robertson (TAR) (Lt.Colonel)
KV 2/930-1, page 7a (T) (Treturn)
B.1.b. (Mr. Milmo)
B.1.a. (Captain Harmer) (once Victoire's case officer)
I don not think that any question of law arises here. Victoire is the Home
Office's prisoner, and the Home Office can stop or send on her letters as
they please. To some extent we (
or M.I.5) have acted in the past
as the Home Office's agent (I doubt
in this matter and have stopped letters without reference to them, but I think
that in view of what occurred in this case it might be wiser for Milmo, who
wrote to Sir Moylan on the 17th October about Victoire's doctor and dentist, to
write to him about this letter, saying that we are stopping it, for reasons of
which he will be aware. The letter might perhaps serve as a reminder to
the Home Office that, so far as we are aware, no progress has been made with the
matter discussed in S.O.E.'s letter of 28.8.43 (minute 332k) and 1.10.43 (minute
325k). My reading of these papers is that we have left S.O.E. to conduct
their own negotiations with the Home Office, but I think that if difficulties
are being experienced which do not look like being solved in the near future,
Kinnaird House (see 47a in SF 85/2/20) (no
longer existing) would be glad to lend a
Please let me know if you think I can help in any way.
KV 2/930-1, page 7b (minute 336)
(AOB, in my perception the British Home Office maintained realistic and high grate standards in matters of legal means. What is a down-side of M.I.5, is, for instance, time and again: that when they don't like legality - they simply do matters illegally and keeping it in the dark)
KV 2/930-1, page 7c (minute 337z)
KV 2/930-1, page 20 (Minute 377b)
KV 2/930-1, page 22:
18th February, 1944
I write to acknowledge receipt of your letter C.14657 of 15.2.44 and enclosures.
Another slight trouble now arises in the difficult case. While Mme. Carré was in the general wing of Holloway she made the acquaintance of Mle. Simon Mousseigt, who was recently released from Holloway, and she now wishes to communicate with her. A copy of a letter dated 3.2.44 is attached. In our view it is undesirable (disagreeable) in the circumstances that Carré should start a correspondence with this woman. This letter appears to be quite harmless but none the less the meaning of this type of letter can never be absolutely clear and might conceal a hidden message. We do not, however, feel that we have any authority to suppress the letter (what a great change in the matter of foregoing effects!), but in view of S.O.E.’s special interest in the case we have forwarded a copy also to them and have asked them, if they have any representations to make, to communicate with you direct. Meanwhile we will hold up the letter.
T.A. Robertson (TAR)
I. Roy, Esq.
10, Old Bailey
CHH (indicates that in some way also Captain Harmer was connected onto this letter; who was formerly Victoire’s guiding officer)
KV 2/930-1, page 51
31st January 1944
Dear Colonel Hinchley-Cooke,
I forward a letter with the enclosures to you from Madame Carré. I also forward a copy of a letter from myself to Dr. Metoven? giving the result of a Surgeon's examination. As regards he eyesight she is examined by an ophthalmic surgeon Mr. Eugene Woolfe, 46 Wimpole Street, W.1. on 24/11/43 who reported that she was extremely short sighted (myophia- about 16 Dioptres) that her eyes were quite healthy and that no change of glasses were necessary. As a watch will be kept on her abdominal condition, so we keep a watch on her vision. It is unlikely that we will be able to do much for her vision.
Governor & Medical Officer
Parliament Street B.O.
KV 2/930-1, page 53 (Victoire writes a thanking letter to the Medical Officer Dr. Mathieson of Holloway Prison. She explains the way she had been treated since she was imprisoned since 1st July 1942; Dr. Mathieson did it on his own initiative) (this is a translation of Victoire's hand-written French letter)
26th January, 1944
Dear Dr. Mathieson (Methven?),
I want to thank you very much indeed for having, on your own initiative, arranged for me to be examined by a specialist this morning, and I look forward with confidence to the treatment that will be given to me either by yourself, or by Dr. Rougevit. I would also like to place on record that this is the first time in nineteen months that anyone whosoever has spontaneously had the kindness to do anything for me. Either promises have been made to me which have not be kept, or it has been necessary for me to make continual requests before obtaining any degree of satisfaction. I am naturally anxious to know the result of the specialist's examination this morning and shall appreciate it if you will kindly inform me regarding this at your earliest possible convenience.
I do not wish to abuse your kindness, but would it be possible for you to arrange for my eyes to be properly examined? You know better than I do, in taking an extreme case, that whilst one's life may continue almost normally even though either or both of one's ovaries (capsules) are removed, it is sheer tragedy if one's eyesight is lost or seriously injured. In view of the fact that I have had eyes examined on numerous occasions and further have nursed in an Ophthalmic Hospital, I can assure you that the examination made by Dr. Wolf in November 1943 was most superficial (artificial) and in fact only a sham - whereas in May 1942 he had made a most comprehensive and thorough examination.
As you will readily realize, time hangs very heavily on my hands here since I am unable to read or sew or write and have not seen comfort of a wireless to which to listen to help get through the day - in fact I do nothing but sit and sit and sit in an armchair!
A propos of the two medicines you prescribed for me, I would inform you that the laxative is excellent in every way and I should very much like to have another bottle, but the one to relieve my headaches was only efficacious (effective) for the first few doses and no longer seems to do me any good.
Once again, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the trouble you are taking on my behalf and should be most grateful if you would help me to get my eyes properly examined, as naturally it is most worrying to feel that they need attention and are being neglected.
(AOB, I have strong doubts that even the Prison doctor got Carré's letter)
KV 2/930-1, page 76 (on Lucas in Stammlager (Stalag) Va to France (from England)
From B.1.a Mr Marriott (but wasn't he from B.1.b?) To B.1.a Captain Harmer (formally Carré's guiding officer)
Buckmaster (S.O.E. telephoned on 4.1.44, to say that he had received information from an unimpeachable source to the effect that Lucas was alive and was interned in Germany in Stammlager (Stalag) Va, together with six or seven other members of his organisation, including some who were despatched (send off) to France (from England) immediately before before the final blow up (May 1942). He thinks that Stammlager Va is an overflow camp from Fresnes.
Date 5.1.44 Signature Marriott
KV 2/930-1, page 77
3rd January, 1943
I am enclosing a copy of a letter which we are informed has been written by an 18B (Home Office Order 18A concerned, in my perception an interned foreigner) detainee at Holloway and sent to Sir Archibald Southby and Sir E. Graham Little. The first character referred to in the letter is obviously Victoire, while the second character referred to is known to us.
You will observe that the letter has already been sent, and that consequently there may conceivably be Parliamentary repercussions which you may like to consider. (similarly happened in the My Eriksson case) I understand that you are informing Sproborg of this complication, and perhaps you will have a word with TAR tomorrow.
Commander J. Senter, R.N.V.R.
KV 2/930-1, page 93 (U) (Ureturn)
14th December, 1943
Dear Moylan (Home Office),
Would you please refer to my letter PF 64216/B.1.a/TAR of the 6th November, 1943. Dr. Herbert visited Carré in Holloway Prison on the 10th November, 1943. The Prison authorities report: "He was on quite friendly professional terms and told her he would like to visit her again, as a friend, if that is allowed."
Carré wrote immediately, sending Dr. Herbert a visiting order. Before sending this on we referred the matter to S.O.E. who, as you know, have predominant interest in the security of Carré's detention. This was then followed by further letters and at the moment we are holding the following: A letter dated 10 November, 1943 from Carré to Dr. Herbert attaching a visiting order: a letter dated 19th November, 1943 from Carré to Dr. Herbert dealing exclusively with medical condition, except that in the last sentence she enquires whether he got the previous letter; a letter dated 28th November, 1943 dealing with her medical condition. We have been holding (AOB, in my perception illegally, because matters were ruled by the Home Office, legally!) these pending receipt of the view of S.O.E. on whether they wish to make representation about further visits by Dr. Herbert to Carré.
We now understand that S.O.E. have communicated with you in this matter, urging that further visits by Dr. Herbert should not take place. In view of the fact that vital S.O.E. interests are involved, we think that we should hold the letters until you have made known your decision on this point, which is raided (inter alia) in Mr. Sporborg's letter to you of 4th December. We have no objection to Carré being visited by Dr. Herbert if S.O.E. agree,
T.A. Robertson (TAR)
Sir John Moylan, C.B, C.B.E. Home Office
KV 2/930-1, page 104 (letter addressed to Colonel Hinchley-Cooke he was the one who got the Order to arrest Victoire on 1st July 1942, at 1700 hours. Why then eventually blocking the transfer of a letter to him? The complains were structural)
The Governor Box 500
H.M. Prison Parliament Street B.O.
re- Madame Carré.
I enclose herewith one outgoing letter written by the above named for your information.
Governor & Medical Officer
KV 2/930-2, page 5
28th November, 1943
Please refer to my letter of the above reference dated 19.11.43.
A barrage of letters is now arriving from Victoire addressed to Dr. Herbert in regard to her health and the possibility of his visiting her again, and in order that we may dispose of them, I should be grateful if you could let me know what your views are in regard to this man visiting her personally.
We are informed by Deputy Governor of Holloway, Miss Wilson, that he showed complete willingness to observe the rules and regulations of the prison and to confine (limit) his visit to medical subjects, and I think that perhaps the most satisfactory way the matter could be dealt with would be if we could induce (persuade) him in some way to write to Victoire and say that, while he was quite prepared to visit her professionally if she needed his attention, he thought on recommendation (sanction) that it would be better not to see her personally. He could then add (which is the fact) that in his opinion the prison authorities are doing everything proper for Victoire and that her health is not suffering as a result of her detention.
In any case, I should be very grateful to have your views, and perhaps, as this problem is now starting to press, you could have a word with Harmer (CHH) on the telephone about it.
T.A. Robertson (TAR (Lt.-Colonel)
Commander J. Senter, R.N.V.R., S.O.E.
(AOB, I get the strong impression that TAR encounters problems communicating with someone of his same office B.1.a; of whom he is in charge!)
KV 2/930-2, page 6
Please see the attached letter from Miss Wilson about Victoire. There are now three letters addressed to Dr. Herbert which are outstanding, and I am putting up a letter for you to write to Commander Senter pressing for their views.
At the same time this problem is becoming very difficult, and I do not quite know what line to adopt. Miss Wilson says that in her opinion it is undesirable (unwelcome) that Dr. Herbert should see Victoire professionally (personally). On the other hand, we are under an obligation to the Home Office (The H.O. gave the final Order 12(5A) with which Victoire's arrest became possible!) not to refuse permits for visits without letting them know. I think that, in any circumstances, if the Home Office agree to put Victoire into the married quarters, we should draw up a new set of regulations to be agreed both by the Home Office and S.O.E., so that we could act in this matter without referring each little problem to everybody for approval before taking action.
You will note in Miss Wilson's letter that Victoire was taken off to see occultist outside the prison. This was entirely without our knowledge, and I personally should have advised opposing it. On the other hand, as it has been done, I feel that the less we say about it the better.
B.1.a. C.H. Harmer
(AOB, please bear in mind: that Carré / Victoire has not been trialled by a British Court, where the hell they derive their un-legal acting and behaviour from? One thing is evident: the system lacked a serious check-and-balance!)
KV 2/932-2, page 14
26th November, 1943.
Your reference PF 64216/B.1.A/CHH
I refer to your letters of the 6th instant and the 19th (350a) instant about Victoire, and we are much obliged to you for the information and for your intervention.
You will no doubt have seen a copy of Sporborg's letter to Guy Liddell of the 17th instant, enclosing a copy of Sporborg's letter to Moylan (Home Office).
John Senter (S.O.E.)
addressed to: Lt. Colonel T.A. Robertson (TAR)
AOB, let us view what Guy Liddell is noticing in his own wartime-diary  by Nigel West Vol. II 1942-1945; page 202 (R) (Rreturn)
(AOB, medically such behaviour is called: "paranoia")
(AOB, whereas S.O.E. had since acknowledged: that information eventually passed on by Victoire is outdated mainly, why then with ongoing times executing stricter measures against Victoire; might there be another, more under the surface - emotions concerned - and coming to light in an increasing revenge attitude?)
KV 2/930-2, page 32a + 33b
2x Crown Copyright
Copy for Captain Guy Liddell.
17th November 1943
I refer to my letter HNS/516 of 1st October last about Madame Carré, the German agent known as "Victoire".
I shall be grateful if I may have an answer to my letter as soon as possible.
I should like to refer to the letter PF 64216/B.1.B./HPM (Mr. Milmo) written to you by Captain Liddell of M.I.5. on 6th November, about an atempt by this woman to interest the French in her case by inviting a friend of her from Carlton Gardens to visit her.
We have the strongest possible objection to any risk being taken to complicate this case by allowing Allied French Headquarters to become interested in it. The political and operational consequences of sucgh a development might be extremely grave as we have two Sections dealing with France and the one which she injured by her activity for the Germans is the Independent one and not the one which works in cooperation (a puppet) with the Allied French (thus not with De Gaulle!)
I should like to make the strongest possible representations against any such visit being allowed and a fortiori against the woman being allowed to leave the prison in any circumstances - I notice that Lt.Colonel Robertson (TAR) of M.I.5. has also written to you about this.
I do hope you give me an assurance that she will be restored to effective segregation with the least possible delay.
I am sending a copy of this to Captain Liddell. (R) (Rreturn)
Sgd. H.N. Sporborg (S.O.E.)
Addressed to: Sir John Moylan, (Home Office) C.B., C.B.E.
KV 2/930-2, page 36 (W) (Wreturn)
May we draw the conclusion, that they even blocked a letter to be sent or convey to a well known S.I.S. Officer?
Tom Greene Esq., or was he equal to Mr. Tom Grim? Her "Uncle Tom"? (S) (Sreturn)
Because Mr. Green of S.I.S. was spelled slightly differently.
But Mr. Grim of Greene was engaged in some way at M.I.5
KV 2/930-2, page 50
B.1.a (Colonel Robertson (TAR))
I spoke on the telephone with Miss Wilson, the Deputy Governor of Holloway, about the letters which Victoire has sent to the two doctors (Prison doctor and Dr. Herbert from London). I suggested that we inserted a slip in each pointing out that payment out of public funds cannot be authorised (see * next), and that so far as we know Victoire herself is without funds.
Miss Wilson also said that the Governor has asked her to supervise the two interviews if they take place. (Whom is interviewing - the Home Office?)
C.H. Harmer (once Victoire's handling officer, who was not too much friendly to her)
KV 2/930-2, page 51 (minute 338c) (*)
Evening Standard 4.11.43
Mr. Morrison Reports on Holloway (prison)
Mr. Herbert Morrison. Home Secretary, said in Parliament today that the following a report by five women in Holloway the chairman of the Priso(n) Commissioners and the Women's Medical Commissioners had made a special investigation.
While the women's report does not give a balanced of the conditions in the prison. ??ne added "it is true that in this establishment as elsewhere the war has effected standards of efficiency.
certain of the complaints have already been remedied (really?), but our difficulties are due in the main shortage of staff, rationing and the nature of the prison building.
"Steps are being taken to find(?) women who will be suitable recruits for the staff.
"I think it only fair to say that considering the difficulties with which they had to contend there are no grounds for criticising the work of the prison officers." (AOB, this might be true, the crux laid in the negative and illegal interventions on behalf of Secret Services)
I think it only fair to say that considering the difficulties with which they had to contend there are no grounds for criticising the work of the prison officers."
Mr. Morrison told Miss Rathbone that if she cared to see the conditions at Holloway he would arrange for a visit at any time.
The five women (among it was Victoire) imprisoned ? non-criminal offences had reported shortage of soap, dirty clothing, new prisoners being put in dirty cells and difficulty in getting medical attention for minor complaints. H.M. Prison Holloway
KV 2/930-2, page 59
3rd November 1943
Your ref:- PF.64216/B.1.a/CHH (Harmer)
Dear Colonel Robertson,
Thank you for your letter of 28th October, 1943 which I think makes the matters of Madame Carré and expenses quite clear.
I have seen Madame Carré today and explained the position to her. She says both Dr. Herbert and Miss Waterson know she has no money and have hitherto treated her for nothing, so she wishes the letters to go as they are. They are accordingly enclosed as requested.
Lt.Colonel T.A. Robertson
Parliament Street B.O.
KV 2/930-2, page 60
Draft letter to Sir John Moylan, C.B., C.B.E. Home Office Approved by (guess Guy Liddell?)
Our ref. P.F. 64216 B.1.B/HPM (= Mr.Milmo)
The above woman is, as you know, on the special female internees who were at one time detained at Aylesbury and who are now lodged in Holloway. There has been considerable amount of correspondence regarding her case passing lately between S.O.E. the Security Service and the Home Office, and a somewhat delicate position now arises in connection with a letter which the lady has written addressed to a certain Madame Richard at the French Headquarters at Carlton Gardens in which she requests that Madame Richard should pay her a visit. (a copy of this letter is attached?)
We do not feel that it would be proper for us to stop this letter without reference to you having regard to the correspondence which passed between this office (M.I.5) and the Home Office (Mr. Hoare) (Secretary of State) in July of last year (1942) concerning the regulations governing the detentions of the special internees at Aylesbury. These regulations provide for an 100% censorship of mail and also for visits with the express stipulation that although permits for visits would only be issued with our written approval, we should bear in mind that it was not desirable that any restrictions imposed should compare unfavourably with those in force previously. The Home Office also stipulated that we should not refuse a permit to visit an internee without consulting them → (page 61)
KV 2/930-2, page 61
If the letter addressed by Madame Carré to her friend in Carlton Gardens is allowed to go forward, we feel that it will doubtless have the effect which the writer intends that it should have, namely to stimulate interest on the part of the French in her case: (a result which in our view would be most undesirable. On the other hand if we stop this letter without reference to you we are in fact preventing Madame Carré having visits and would thereby de disregarding the Home Office regulations referred to above.
Continuing (NIX Home Office!)
Suggested alternatives to last paragraph
We feel it of great importance that the fact of this case should not be known and discussed by the French and, therefore, it is in our (M.I.5) view most undesirable that Mme/ Carré should be visited by, or communicate with, any French person here. This is also, of course, a matter in which S.O.E. will have a vital interest and we think that they will almost certainly regard it as of paramount importance that this letter should not go forward. We are, therefore, sending them a copy of the letter and you will doubtless be hearing from them with the representation they wish to make regard to this letter.
KV 2/930-2, page 77
17th October, 1943
I understand that at the end of September, 1943, Mme Carré, who is detained in Holloway, addressed a letter to the Home Office which has been sent to G.2 Division, together with a medical report, In this letter she applied to see a doctor and dentist. A duplicate of the letter and the medical report were forwarded to us (a lie! because all correspondence was first to be handed over to M.I5) under date 27th September, 1943, by the Governor of Holloway. We have today replied as shown by the duplicate copy of our letter sent herewith. S.O.E. have been consulted and raise no objection to Mme. Carré seeing people in question.
Sir John Moylan, C.B., C.B.E., Home Office.
They are institutional liars! Please compare both hyperlinks: (T) (U) (Ureturn) (Treturn)
KV 2/930-2, page 80
Please see the attached medical report regarding Victoire. The position is as follows. Victoire is anxious to see her doctor and dentist, no doubt for the pleasure of seeing outsiders (AOB, what academic qualification does possess Captain Harmer; any university medical degree or at least in psychology? None, because he is an ordinary lower grade civil Crown servant, who is judging the feelings of someone mistreated by such a minor civil servant!) and also because she is rapidly convincing herself that she needs their attention. In legal position is that if Victoire has sufficient money to pay for specialist medical attention, we would have difficulty at the present moment in upholding a refusal to allow her to consult them. S.O.E., as you will see from the letter also attached, do not object to her seeing the specialist.
In these circumstances it seems to me (what is he?) that there are three courses open to us. Either we can tell her that we cannot permit her to see outsiders, in which event we will presumably have to inform the Home Office (and that they are actually afraid of) of what we are doing; or we can tell her (which I think is the right course) that having received a report from the prison authorities that no outside medical attention is necessary, we are afraid that the expense cannot be sanctioned but if she can arrange it independently we will put no difficulties in the way. (A pure Lie, as soon as Dr. Herbert entered the scene, they developed new argument to restrict also this opportunity!) The third course is to tell her that she can see her specialist and stomach the expense. In the event we will have also, as I see it, to make the arrangement for her being seen in prison. (M.I.5, in particular built up a reputation of only day-to-day responsibilities. See, for instance, the widow of Johann Jebsen, British cover-name Artist, when his widow applied for a kind of 'pension' they rejected this harshly!) See (V) Vreturn In one word: disgusting the way some Civil Crown Servant played-out their human short-comings , maybe call it their frustrations!
B.1.a. C.H. Harmer
KV 2/930-2, page 89 (what do they have to hide?)
2 x Crown Copyright
According to the data to the minute 324k: (S.I.S. source of information) S.O.E. report re returned agent connected with Felix set.
Why keeping it hidden for future generations, even in April 2002?
AOB, might it be - that its content may put a different light upon the Secret Services attitude versus Madame Carré alias "Victoire"?
KV 2/931-1, page 3c (minute 393c)
16.3.44 From S.O.E. enclosing copy of letter from Mr. Sporborg to Sir John Moylan, Home Office.
KV 2/931-2, page 25 (letter according minute 393c)
13th March, 1944
When I received Mr. Roy's letter of the 15th February as to the future custody of this woman I thought that the matter had been satisfactory settled for the remainder of the war. Certain new facts have, however, just been brought to my attention which fill me with alarm and compel (oblige) me to raise the matter with you again.
My department (in S.O.E.) have just received a copy of a letter dated 7th March from Lt.Col. Robertson (TAR) of M.I.5. to Mr. Roy, enclosing letters from Mme. Carré to her doctor and to Inspector Gay of Scotland Yard. In these letters Mme. Carré invites the addresses to pay her social visits, claiming that she is entitled to one such visit per week and supporting her claim by enclosing official visiting orders. When we received this communication we imagined that there had been some mistake and got in touch with M.I.5. immediately. We were astonished to be informed that Mme. Carré was indeed entitled under the regulations to receive visitors.
I have always understood that the question whether individual detainees might or might not receive visitors was a matter for the discretion of the Home Department and that in this case of dangerous persons, such as Mme. Carré, no visitors were allowed. This certainly appears to have been the (illegal) position hitherto in the case of Mme. Carré, as appears from the copies of her letters which have → (page 26)
KV 2/931-2, page 26 (last page of this series, as their points are clearly being expressed)
been shown to us. I consider that it would be a most serious mistake to alter the position now and to allow her this privilege, which she has not hitherto enjoyed, particularly in view of the steps which have been taken to prevent her from having contact with persons likely to be released from detention. Such a course would entirely contrary to our understanding of the position, we were under the clear impression that her contacts were, and would continue to be, limited to members of the staff and other detainees. held for the duration of the war.
Please read the next paragraph yourself.
(continuing with paragraph 3) In these circumstances I trust that you will give immediate instructions that the 'status quo' may be maintained and that Mme. Carré may not be allowed to receive visitors. I would also suggest that she should not be allowed to send letters inviting visitors and that any such letters she writes should be held up. I cannot help feeling that she is lucky to be allowed to write letters at all in view of the fact that, blah blah blah ...
(AOB, I cut here Mr. Sporborg's 'paranoia' explications)
KV 2/931-1, page 3 (Minute 394)
(AOB, this might well prove, or at least seriously indicate - that they were in March 1944, rather well aware of the mistreatments they had constantly commenced towards Victoire!)
KV 2/931-1, page 4 (minute 397a) → KV 2/931-2, page 4 (F3) (F3return)
A.D.B. (S.L.B. Major Cussen) (Home
Many thanks for letting me see this effusion (declaration) which I entirely agree is rather appalling. I say so because it seems to be another attempt to bludgeon (beat) Moylan and the Home Office into a course of action which I am convinced will lead to unfortunate repercussions sooner or later and unless we watch our steps most carefully we are not likely to escape unscathed though S.O.E. themselves may so so as they will probably have ceased to exist by the time the storm breaks.
Much of S.O.E's letter consist of vague generalities in the form of catch a penny phrases and arguments which when examined are either irrelevant or meaningless. Thus they argue that because Victoire is a most dangerous woman determined to have her revenge, the proper tactics are to dam up the food of her venom (malice) so that it will explode with full force at a moment when it will be most likely to have the maximum effect. In 1940 the public would not have listened to the grievances (complaints), imaginary or otherwise, of persons such as Victoire. In 1944 the public are much more receptive (open) of this sort of thing than they were but still would have little sympathy for persons who have been working with the Germans. After hostilities cease and peace is restored public opinion will be such that the Victoire story is capable of being whipped up into a major scandal. I my opinion the proper way in which to provide against such an event is not by repression but by allowing Victoire as much rope now as is reasonably consistent with the security requirements of her case.
I would like to skip, the minor irrelevant matters discussed, as it diminishes the essential of the foregoing, serious facts.
KV 2/931-2, page 5a (partially) page 6 entirely (E3) (E3return)
I feel (Mr. Milmo of M.I.5) that this kind of overbearing dictation by S.O.E. should cease and that the bluff should be called. I cannot profess to be fully familiar with all the facts of the Victoire case but I have looked into this aspect of it on more than one occasion, and I have yet to see any real ground advanced for banning this woman's correspondence or for depriving her of supervised visits. I greatly doubt that there is any case at all for not treating as a perfectly ordinary detainee. As I understand it every agent with whom she was in contact and of whose existence knows is "blown" and there is therefore nothing which she knows which, if it leaked to the Germans, could do any harm. I suppose it is trye that she might be able to give some information about the identity of some S.O.E. agents who have been captured this information is doubtless in enemy hands many times over and in any event it is difficult to see what harm it could do or what benefit the enemy would derive from it. I would there fore suggest that S.O.E. should be asked to state in writing and with particularly precisely what information they fear might leak from Victoire to the Germans, indicating in the case of each item the harm which they suggest would be done thereby.
B.1.b/20.3.44 H.P. Milmo
KV 2/931-1, page 5 (minute 408)
I do not think there is any real necessity to have a discussion about this case as I feel that all that really remains to be decide who shall be held responsible for looking after this case in the future.
It is a case which as I have previously said is going to cause this office (M.I.5) considerable trouble for some time to come. I personally feel that it should be handed to someone with a proper legal background who will ensure that the office is not in any way committed more than cab be helped when Victoire is released from prison after the war. Following on from this, I think another consideration is that whoever deals with the case should be an Officer who will probably be remaining in the office after the end of hostilities.
A.D.B. T.A. Robertson (TAR)
Have we reached a solution?
KV 2/930-1, page 11 dd. 15th August, 1944
10, Old Bailey
15th August, 1944.
Dear Brooke Booth, (M.I5.)
Referring to your letter to Roy of 8th July. Madame Carré is being informed that she cannot be allowed to send letters or receive visits and that her letters have been stopped. I think this answers your main point.
I am informing M.O.1 (S.P.)
Progressing with KV 2/931 I entered KV 2/931-3
I encountered two quite detailed, personal, sheets including a photo of Victoire (X) (Xreturn) and one of Lucas (Y) (Yreturn)
I doubted a bit where I should copy-in the two references, but decided that logically these belong within the introduction sections; the above two hyperlinks X and Y allowing you to jump to it, and returning thereafter as well.
However, at what point should I close our current Chapter 4?
In my perception, it does make sense the complete studying the remaining KV 2/931-3 and KV 2/931-4 series.
KV 2/931-3, page 33a
Finally we can follow their escape from France to England
M. The attempted operation of the 20th/21st February.
The messages then recommenced on the 16th February, in order to make arrangements for a second sea operation, and the place nominated by the British was the point Bihit (see next map) near Morlaix.
(Z35) ↓↓↓↓↓ (Z35return)
(Z8) (Z8return) GoogleEarth
Pointe de Bihit is actually not too far from the foregoing Le Moulin de la Rive
Victoire and Lucas left Paris (after the failed attempt on 13/14th February and the next day, they returned to Paris again) for Brest on the morning of the 20th February. They left the train at Morlaix and travelled to Lannion by 'bus. On the way the 'bus was stopped by a Luftwaffe car and an officer asked for the papers of the driver and looked into the 'bus to see that Victoire and Lucas were there. Victoire had previously noticed people watching them at the station at Morlaix - quite evidently they were kept under observation the whole time. They took dinner at Lannion and afterwards set off to walk to Bihit, but lost the way and only just reached the appointment spot in time. There they spent the night on the beach, but nothing happened. On following day they returned to a place called Trebeurden for breakfast and then went on to Lannion. They returned to Bihit during the night but nothing happened again, so on the following day they returned to Paris (again) and heard from the Germans who had been watching the operation that the boat had come on the night of the 20th/21st but that Victoire and Lucas had stationed themselves at the wrong place. The Germans on this occasion appear to have managed the watching of the operation very much better.
N. The final operation.
Again the message recommended, and it was arranged that the operation should be re-attempted at the point of Bihit for the night of the 26th/27th. Victoire had received still more compliments about the operation of the 20th/21st, and in response to complaints they said that they would see she had proper accommodation in the future. She (Victoire) and Lucas left left Paris (third time) for Morlaix on the 25th. When they arrived there Victoire went to the Feldgendarmerie, threw her weight about and told the N.C.O. (Uffz.) to telephone to their (his) Hauptmann (Hptm), which eventually they did and he arranged for accommodation for the night of the 25th. Victoire then demanded paper from the N.C.O. (Uffz.) and wrote a stiff note to Eckert complaining of the way she had been treated by the German N.C.Os.
During the afternoon of the 26th they went to the point of Bihit by daylight in order to make no mistake (again). They then returned to Trebeurden where they had dinner. After dinner they returned to the appointed spot. Operation was successful, and on the following morning they landed in England. The S.O.E. officer who was in charge of the operation was, as can be imagined, astonished to find Victoire in the party at all. Her coming had not been announced in the messages and she therefore did not receive the old-fashioned welcome she expected; for this she never forgave the British service in question. I. The arrest of Lucas
KV 2/931-3, page 42:
I. The arrest of Lucas.
Our triumph at receiving the message about Benoit was short lived. On the 25th April a message was received from Paris (I doubt via the German controlled lines!) saying that Roger had been arrested. This was followed on the 28th by further message saying that the official office used by Lucas, namely Lido office, had been searched and that Claude had also been arrested, and that Kiki had taken over the direction of the organisation. While we were speculating on what reason prompted the Germans to announce the arrest of Roger, even if he had been arrested, a message came through from a clean transmitter (thus not German controlled) in touch with the Lucas organisation, dated 30th April (1942) saying that Roger had disappeared since the 23rd April, that Lucas was making enquiries through an ex-Sureté official, and warning us to distrust all messages on the Victoire transmitter (Victoire brought her W/T to England and established from there, S.O.E controlled, a communication with the German controlled (fake) Walenty line) until further orders. In view of these messages we pressed the Germans for all details to try and make them send something which would disclose the true state of affairs and what they were playing at. Then S.O.E. heard that Lucas himself had been arrested, and that the first courier (Roger) he had sent from the occupied to the unoccupied zone had been arrested crossing the frontier. It is possible that this courier had on him documents that showed to the Germans that Lucas was back in France and that they therefore arrested Roger and the other Lucas agents immediately, and through them managed to find Lucas. A certain amount of support for this is found in a message received by the Poles on the 15th May (1942), in which the arrest of a all Lucas agents was confirmed round the 4th (this must be the 24th April 1942)
KV 2/931-3, page 43b
J. Disposal of Victoire.
It had been realised all along that the disposal of Victoire would be a difficult decision. Had the plan gone as we hoped, would be a difficult decision. He had the plan gone as we hoped, all Lucas agents would have disappeared sometime about the middle of May, after which Lucas would have made his way back to England for further instructions. We would then have been faced with a possible difficulty of persuading him that Victoire could not accompany him back to France. We might also have had to intern Victoire, and this might have disgruntled (dissatisfied) him to a dangerous extent. Once, however, he (Lucas) was arrested the problem was merely one of what to do with Victoire herself. The only complications which could probably arise were those which might arise after the war, when she regained her liberty.
The most satisfactory way of dealing with her appeared to be intern her. The objection to this were that she was a cunning (calculating) and intelligent person and after she regained her liberty she would be in a position to make a great deal of trouble for us. There was also the objection that, having accepted her, entertained her and made use of her drafting messages, we were under some sort of moral obligation not to turn against her. It was felt however, that she was not only a very dangerous woman in herself but that she was in possession of valuable information about the activities of S.O.E. (a nice story tail, but there is evidence in this document, that in early 1943 S.O.E. judged that only a single person was still free, all the rest arrested and therefore, no longer endangered; S.O.E. maintain a kind of revenge policy, which was covered by irrelevant arguments, but prevailing). Even if she sere left at liberty she was bound to be disgruntled because we had encouraged her in the belief (or rather not discouraged her in her belief) that one day she would be sent out by the British Intelligence en mission. A compromise was suggested that she might be told that any further work on our behalf was impossible, but that she as she had worked for us she could have her liberty, coupled with threats of immediate internment if she did anything wrong. This was, however objected to by S.O.E. and she was, therefore, interned under a 12(5A) Order on July 1st (1942). Since that date she has been at Aylesbury goal.
In the later stages of her liberty in this country she became acquainted with a well known author in the army (Richard Llewellyn LLoyd). He took her to live in his flat. Although the wisdom of the decision may be doubted, it was thought at the time that we .. we have already extensively dealt with this aspect
KV 2/931-4, page 20 (Data Hugo Ernst Bleicher)
KV 2/931-4, page 45 (O5) (O5return)
(B3) (B3return) (B9) (B9return) (A36) ↓↓ (A36return)
Maybe a splendid opportunity to conclude this Chapter 4 - with the last message transmitted over Victoire's W/T line from London - towards the German Abwehr in Paris!
AOB: we have reached now the conclusion of the file series up to KV 2/926 ... KV 2/931
However, my perception was, that Victoire's story has been told now, adequately.
But this proved to be in vain, as the proceeding KV 2/932 ... series contains so many essential background- and follow-up information, that I have decided to
proceed at a annex page:
Carré - Lucas - Brutus
I would like to proceed in the same manner as being maintained on this webpage.
By Arthur O. Bauer