Chap runter zuladenter 8e
date of forced moving to this new web page: 4th August 2021
Reason of this move or change was that the foregoing webpage exceeded it apparent limit;
which apparently limitation had caused me quite some problems before.
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Current Status: 7 September 2021
Chapter 9a (13-8'21)
Chapter 9b (20-8'21)
Chapter 9c (26-8'21)
Chapter 9d (7-9'21)
KV 2/449-2, page 27 (minute 1027a) (L158) ↓↓ (L158return) (Q160) ↓↓ (Q160return) (R162) (R162return)
This document proofs to be a great blunder on behalf of M.I.5; as apparently the Germans had access to this kind of documents, and rightly concluded that Arthur Owens (Snow) was travelling on behalf of the British Secret Service!
Copies to A.C. Admin. & A. I. I· d.
Civil Air Transport Warrant.
Serial No. 945035/39/16/251A
Please reserve the priority air passage (s) detailed below.
Name of passenger (s): Arthur Owens (Snow)
Passenger's Department or employer: ---
Journey: ? K - Lisbon
Date of service 31/1,L.S.27
Invoice to: Passenger.
's address: c/o F/Lt. Cholmondely, Air Ministry, A.I. 1 d.
Signature of issuing officer L.P. Quelch
KV 2/449-2, page 28 (minute 1026b)
I saw Celery and Snow (Arthur Owens) at my (J.H. Marriott) club at 2 p.m. this afternoon. They explained that they had been to the Portuguese Consulate and had discovered that the only query, with regard to their visas, was as to the length of their proposed stay in Portugal. The Portuguese authorities have, apparently, been bothered in the past by people who, having obtained visas ostensibly for a short stay only, have remained on for indefinite time. As a result of the conversation, the Portuguese Consulate despatched a telegram to Portugal in the terms of the attached copy. The authorities expressed that they would be available on Friday next. Snow (Arthur Owens) will collect these and arrangements will have to be made for Celery's passport to be sent down to him to the Kings Head, Newport telephone 3340. Celery (Walter Dicketts) Celery will have to be on his boat by 11. p.m. on Friday next, and he has suggested that the passport to be sent down to him by rail express. Celery also suggested that we should arrange for the embassy in Lisbon to be cabled with instructions for Mr. Lindley of the F.B.I. to go to see the Portuguese Police and urge a granting of the visas. (AOB, Celery's (Walter Dicketts') is heading for Gibraltar first) After some discussion, it was decided that this sort of official pressure should be avoided, and Snow (Arthur Owens) himself was also very much against the suggestion, that he should send a message to the Germans, asking them to put pressure at their end.
Quite a part of this document had been made invisible
Snow (Arthur Owens) had informed him that if by any chance he himself should decide not to to Lisbon, he would cable Celery either at the Metropole or at the Pension-Liz. He would also, through one of our own → (page 29) → sources, send a cable to the Doctor (Major Ritter).
KV 2/449-2, page 29
→ sources, send a cable to the Doctor (Major Ritter). If the Doctor (Major Ritter) were to produce to Celery a cable from Snow (Arthur Owens) containing the work 'Dicky' (so spelt) that would mean that Celery was authorized bt Snow (Arthur Owens) to work hand in glove (think of boxing glove) with the Doctor (Major Ritter). Snow (Arthur Owens) will probably give him information to us but Celery is of the opinion that he will not explain to us exactly what is the significance of the word 'Dicky', and will say that it means that Celery has his authority to interview the Doctor (Major Ritter).
B.2.a 22.1.41 Sgd. J.H. Marriott
KV 2/449-2, page 35 (minute 1018b)
I met with Dr. Hill at the Paddington Hotel before 8.30 a.m. and went with him to 7, Grave Hill (AOB, a room somewhere opposite number 14 where Biscuit (Sam McCarthy lived) arrived in the room which Mr. Williams had taken in 7 Graven Hill about a week previously. Mr. Paul who had spent the night there had fixed up his cinematograph in such a way that it was practically invisible to detect it from the street, It was found on arrival of Mr. Paul that 9 a.m. that his apparatus was working perfectly and gave extremely good results. (AOB, I suppose watched via its viewer)
The only suspicious character to my mind who came on the scene was a man wearing dark clothes, a dark overcoat and no hat with a stiff white collar walking up Craven Hill from the direction of Paddington Station. As he got opposite No. 14 (Biscuit's address?), he took his handkerchief out, blew his nose and looked behind him twice. He was carrying over his left shoulder a canvas case which may have contained a large size gas-mask He was not, however, seen again up to the time that I left at one o'clock. Nothing suspicious happened at 9.30.
Before leaving I made arrangements for the watch to be continued and instructed Williams to go over and sit in Biscuit's (Sam McCarthy's) room after dark. I gave him further instructions to the effect that if anybody came with the plans he was to be engaged in conversation and information as to his identity to be extracted from him if possible. If this failed I gave Williams instructions to arrest the man. However, I think this is unlikely. I also gave further instructions that the watch should be carried on tomorrow.
During the course of the morning I withdrew the watchers from the outside and brought them into Mr. Williams' room where they had a perfect view of the front door at 14, Craven Hill.
To my mind the set up was first class and we could not have failed to get every detail if anybody had arrived.
At 1 o'clock I saw Snow (Arthur Owens) at the Paddington Hotel and informed him that nothing had happened. He seemed to be → (page 36) →very worried and suggested that a message should be sent through this evening at 5 o'clock saying that he had watched for four hours, that nothing had happened and that he was extremely annoyed. A message of this description I discovered subsequently had been sent at 11.30 a.m.
KV 2/449-2, page 36 (Y219) ↓↓↓ (Y219return)
→very worried and suggested that a message should be sent through this evening at 5 o'clock saying that he had watched for four hours, that nothing had happened and that he was extremely annoyed. A message of this description I discovered subsequently had been sent at 11.30 a.m.
Snow (Arthur Owens) expressed the opinion that he would rather not be going to Lisbon but would rather return to Ottershaw. However he said that he would not go back on his word at this late stage and is perfectly prepared to go ahead. Mr. Horsfall whom I saw for a few , moths alone expressed the opinion that he considered that Snow (Arthur Owens) fully realised that none-one would turn up. Mr. Horsfall is taking Snow (Arthur Owens) down to Bristol to-night and will get in touch with Mr. Marriott or myself (TAR? or maybe Mr. D.G White?) this evening. As I was leaving the hotel a message came through from Mr. Marriott to the effect that a reply had been received to our message at 11 o'clock saying that Snow (Arthur Owens) was not to worry and that the man would turn up on his return from Lisbon. I collected all the papers which I had left with Snow (Arthur Owens). In view of this last message there is the question as to whether the watch may be taken off.
AOB: The disadvantage of the KV 2/ xxx series, is, as we know that with increasing page numbers you are going backwards in time. The consequence, is, that we are approaching the late 1940s again, worthless in the context of our history. I therefore, have to approach the KV 2/450 series; whatever it might bring us.
KV 2/450-1, page 1
Papers from the
"Snow" (Arthur Owens) Case
KV 2/450-1, page 3 (minute 1317b)
T.A.R. (T.A. Robertson)
John Gwyer (M.I.5) verdict on Snow (Arthur Owens) to the effect that however obscurely he may have wrapped up his information he nevertheless did provide us with an immense amount of detail, which subsequent cross-checking has shown to be try, makes me feel that it is worth trying to put a man into personal touch with the Germans even if we thoroughly mistrust him and that the longer the war goes on and the more accurate our background knowledge becomes the less it does it matter how great is our mistrust. For assuming that we can adequately prevent an agent from giving away really secret and vital material he is not really in a position to do us much harm, while even if he is double-crossing us completely he is bound to tell us something which is true and which eiter at the time or subsequently can be checked.
If the above argument is correct it seems to me that from an intelligence point of view there is a great deal to be said for sending over to Spain or Portugal a man whom we have every reason to believe is really a spy, for he is more likely to get into touch with important German Secret Service Officers. (AOB: in this respect Arthur Owens (Snow) was exceptionally well placed; as he had quite free access to Major Ritter whom was Referatsleiter I L of Ast Hamburg; by then known as the "Doctor"! Most essential - he was trusted) and so even unconsciously (instinctively) give us information we want than is more trustworthy man who is not acceptable to the Germans. I suggest therefore that we ought now to be revising our ideas and to send over to the (Iberian) Peninsular everybody for whom we can provide a reasonable excuse for going there irrespective of whether we expect him to play straight with us. I believe that on view it might even be worth while sending Snow (Arthur Owens) back again to Lisbon since he would almost certainly get an interview with the Doctor (Major Ritter) which is a thing that a much more reliable man might perhaps fail to secure. The same is true - and perhaps more attractive in the case of Lester (?).
B.1.a. 17.10.41. Sgd. J.H. Marriott
AOB: we are approaching now the era where Arthur Owens (Snow) has been effectively brought under captivity Order 18B (strangely on behalf of the Home Office in respect to Aliens)
KV 2/450-1, page 5
D.D.G.S.S. through A.D.B.1 (=Dick G. White) M.I.5.
Snow (Arthur Owens) has been interned under (Order) 18B at Stafford Goal (prison) and according to recent information, it has become to our notice that he has laid plans in an attempt to escape from Stafford and make his way to Dublin. It is felt necessary to reimpose the check on name made invisible Arthur Owens?
Addelstone, as Snow (Arthur Owens) may attempt to get in touch with Lily (Bade, Arthur's girlfriend) or name made invisible in order to get their assistance. This I feel might be done by Snow (Arthur Owens) getting one of the warders to smuggle a letter out for him and post it in Stafford so it avoids the censorship which is imposed on all letters leaving and entering the Prison. Snow (Arthur Owens) as you know was caught in the process of attempting to escape from Stafford and had used one of the warders to take a letter by hand to Lily (Bade).
B.1.a. 18.8.41 Sgd. T.A. Robertson (TAR)
KV 2/450-1, page 6 (minute 1264c)
Original in File PF 47899 (KV 2/701 ..KV 2/706) Krafft, Mathilde .. (S39) (S39return) Dated: 31.8.41
Extracted on 28.4.44
Extract from Statement of Case against Mathilde Caroline Maria Krafft, mentioning Snow (Arthur Owens)
8. On the outbreak of was a man named Arthur Owens (Snow), who had at one time worked for the British Intelligence service but had more than a year before been seduced by better pay into the German service, was detained in this country. He agreed to work for us as an agent double, and on the 15th September (T39) (T39return) 1939 went on our instructions to Belgium where he met and was was given instructions by Dr. Rantzau (Major Ritter), a responsible member of the German espionage organisation (He was Leiter I L, Ast Hamburg). It is material to say that on this occasion Snow (Arthur Owens) appears to have had no discussion with the Germans about the method by which his salary was to be paid.
Between the 19th October 1939, Snow (Arthur Owens) made a second journey, this time to Brussels and Antwerp. On this occasion an anonymous German introduced himself to Snow (Arthur Owens) as Dr. Rantzau's (Major Ritter's) secretary, at the Railway station on the way to Antwerp they were joined by a woman, aged about thirty-eight or forty, 5' 6" in high slim and with fair hair, who did not give her name. These two persons did discuss with Snow (Arthur Owens) how he was paid. They explained that there was a woman, who lived near Bournemouth and had a certain amount of property, who was going to supply Snow's (Arthur Owens') money. → (page 7)
KV 2/450-1, page 7
He understood that the money would either be handed to him or put through his letter box. He was told that this woman might meet him in the street in Kingston, and would probably be wearing a fur.
Snow's (Arthur Owens') name and address were known to the Germans as ??? Its is material to say that at the material times (autumn) 1939 he was regarded by the Germans as a most valuable agent. (But acting mainly on behalf of British M.I.5!)
KV 2/450-1, page 8 (minute 1257b)
I (TAR) went this morning to Weybridge Police Station and there met Superintendent Curry of the Surrey County Constabulary. I gave him the 18B Order signed the Home Secretary (the one of late May 1940!) (U40) (U40return) and asked him if he would execute this. He told me that as a result of a telephone call he had received from Headquarters from Inspector Roberts with whom I spoke yesterday, he had taken the liberty of arresting Snow Junior (Robert, Arthur Owens' son of his first marriage) at 8 o'clock this morning when he was leaving the firs station at Chartsey. He explained that he did not wish to miss the opportunity of arresting him as he did not know where he was going to to be today. After thanking Superintendent Curry for what he had done and asking him to serve the order on S.J. (Snow Junior), who was already in custody in the Police Station, I went with Sergeant Txxxrden to name made invisible, but likely Robert's and/or Owen's wife's Jessie address and there he searched searched (Owens) Junior's property. The attached property at words made invisible (b) was taken from the effects which had been taken from S.J's person by the Police when he was arrested.
When at Spinney Hill I (TAR) saw Snow's (Arthur Owens's wife Jessie) who was very anxious to know for how long S.J (?) would be detained. I said I was unable to tell her. She did not seem to worry about S.J. (= Snow Junior) and when we told her that we had to detain him under 18B she offered no comments apart from the fact that she asked us what he had been up to.
It is worthy of note that S.J (Owens Junior) was arrested be said, "This does not surprise me, I was expecting it" or words of that effect. (AOB, please remember, Arthur Owens lived since early 1939 with Lily Bade, instead; quite a reason for her hatred; and because he (son Robert) apparently was still in touch with his father (Arthur) which circumstance increased her hatred against both)
He was taken to Brixton Prison this afternoon. When he was told that he had the right to appeal under 18B, he said he thought that this was probably a wast of time as it was no good his making any representations to the Authorities.
B.1.a. 28.8.41 Sgd. T.A. Robertson, Major (TAR)
KV 2/450-1, page 9 (minute 1246c)
Note on the case of Snow Junior (Robert Owens)
Snow Junior (Robert Owens) is now aged twenty-one, and is the son of Arthur Owens ("Snow"). Since the outbreak of the war Owens' Junior has been in pretty constant touch with his father and has all the times been aware that his father, who was detained under D.R. 18B on the 23rd April 1941, has since the outbreak of the war been acting as a double-cross agent for the British Intelligence Service. Snow Junior (Robert Owens) knows enough about his father's recent activities to be able himself to establish communication with the German Secret Service. He is consequently potentially very dangerous. (AOB: but he himself did not committed a crime! The German totalitarian State called this: "Sippenhaft" or more dubious "Sicherheitsverwahrung")
Snow Junior (Owens Junior) has recently got into touch with an officer of M.I.5. and said that he was in possession of information which would enable him to enter and leave enemy occupied territory. He offered to undertake this work. In the course of two interviews with officers of M.I.5 it became reasonably apparent that Snow Junior (Owens Junior) had no special qualifications and no particular facilities for entering or leaving occupied territory. It was reasonably clear that his object in seeking and interview was to secure his father's release. In the course of this (see above there were more interviews (were there?) interview Snow Junior (Owens Junior) stated that in the summer of 1939 (though before September 3rd/4th) he had mapped certain aerodromes to the south of London, in particular Biggin Hill and Kenley, and that he had sent these plans to an address in Hamburg which is father had informed him was a cover address for the German Intelligence Service.
On the day of ?? March 1941 the Home Secretary signed a detention order in respect to Snow Junior (Robert Owens) for the execution in the event of invasion. Having regard to the matters set out above it is submitted that Snow Junior (Owens Junior) at present constitutes a grave potential danger and the detention order should be served at once. (AOB: we should be quite careful in considering the cons and pros; as when M.I.5 /M.I.6 applied for an detention Order based on 18B - that factually the Home Offices followed the applications. But, whether it stand legal considerations, isn't always sure. The Secret Services used the Home Office to get someone behind bars, whether this was always legal is another matter!)
S.L.(A) Special Branch at Scotland Yard (as executers) 19.8.41
KV 2/450-1, page 10 (minute 1243a)
18th August, 1941
My dear Cowgill (S.I.S. / M.I.6),
We are now compiling a complete summary of the Snow (Arthur Owens) case, and there are one or two points on which I wonder whether you could help us. For example, in our files there is a note from Colonel name made invisible secretary, dated February 14th, 1938, to the effect that Snow (Arthur Owens) had just come back from America (AOB, remember that Arthur Owens was in the legal possession of a valid Canadian Passport). This is the only indication. This is the only indication that we have of this having made such a journey which is not recorded on his passport. It seems possible that this ought to be connected with a letter of Snow's to Dr. Rantzau (Major Ritter) in the previous July, saying "I am sure by the looks of it we soon require the help of some of your good friends in the land of the dollar". It would be very interesting to know if there are any records of Colonel name made invisible still extant, which would throw any light on this, particularly now that we know that Dr. Rantzau (Major Ritter) has been running another "Snow Case" in the States. (AOB: I quite wonder, that M.I.5 is so poorly informed! Major Ritter no longer was connected to Ast Hamburg (since early Spring 1941), but he was engaged in North Africa in an endeavour of Laszlo Almásy, in the context of Rommel's DAK!)
On September 23rd, 1938, Snow (Arthur Owens) was interrogated by Colonel Hinchley-Cooke (at Scotland Yard by Special Branch) (V40) (V40return), after having previously, it appears, made statement on his adventure in Germany. There is no copy copy of this statement, unfortunately, in our files; but it seems just possible that Colonel (Dunderdale??) might also have preserved a copy. Could you let me know whether there are and records of the case in → (page 11)
KV 2/450-1, page 11
its early stages, from Colonel (Dunderdale??) point of view, to which it would be possible for us to have access; as if so, I think it might be possible for us to clear up these two points, and one or two other minor ones.
T.A. Robertson (Major) (TAR)
KV 2/450-1, page 12 (minute 1241a)
Statement by Dirk Boon.
AOB: might this statement have been given after 23rd April 1941; when he joined imprisonment with Arthur Owens (Snow)? He a stoolpigeon!
During talks I had with Snow (Arthur Owens) concerning his activities as a German spy, he told me:-
That he made photographs of the flying-tests of the Mayo composition flying boat.
That he worked with a film camera at the testing grounds at Farnborough to film tanks and planes.
That he knew about the bombardments of a camp of Canadian soldiers living in tents near London what resulted in a huge number of casualties.
That the Intelligence Service could not find out anything through his New York bank account because he did not use this bank to pay his men. (W41) (W41return)
That he was in Berlin two days before the outbreak of war and in Belgium (Antwerp) a few days before invasion (on 10th May 1940).
That in case of an invasion here (England) the Germans would use gas, but that they had evidence that England would use it first.
That he had special German passport for his travels in Germany (green-coloured).
That in case of invasion I could help him by asking the first German officer I saw, to inform the military Commander of Hamburg (Wehrkreis X; but meant was Ast-X) and Dr. Rantzau (really Major Ritter, Referatsleiter I L, Abwehrstelle Hamburg) that Snow actually Johnny (Arthur Owens) was arrested and where he was held.
That Summer (KV 2/60) (actually German code-named Nilberg; real name Gösta Caroli) came over by parachute and was captured because Biscuit (Sam McCarthy) betrayed him.
That Biscuit told him (Dirk Boon) that Summer (Nilberg / Gösta Caroli) was ill and he would keep him in a flat in London until he was fit again. → (page 13)
KV 2/450-1, page 13
That shortly before he went to Lisbon he lost another man because he broke his legs (likely pointing at Jakobs whom broke his ankle; https://www.cdvandt.org/kv-2-24-27-jakobs.htm) at descent and was arrested (the only German agent once executed; why is the moral downside within M.I.5; which service wanted, under all moral costs, to prevent their defeat like in the case of Sjoerd Pons, a Dutchman!) (Y43) (Y43return) before the men he had sent to meet this man had found him. (Maybe this man is the man who spent a few days in cell 31 of Latchmere House (Camp 020?) during the end of March).
That he used the name of "Graham Thomas" (X41) (X41return) when he operated in Manchester (the microdot-photographer Charlie / Charles Eschborn KV 2/454).
That transmission sets were brought in by Spanish or Japanese ships.
That the key of these sets was hidden behind the wall paper and only had to insert the pusher to the switch on the apparatus hidden somewhere in the house.
Stafford, 15th August '41
Sgd. D.J. Boon
AOB; Mr. Boon had been, most likely, a stoolpigeon versus Arthur Owens!
KV 2/450-1, page 14 (minute 1233a)
Major Robertson and I (J.C.
whom was the Double-Cross
Johan Dirk Boon at Stafford Prison on Wednesday, 13th August. The purpose
of the interview was to hear the disclosures which he wished to make with regard
to Snow (Arthur Owens).
Boon said that he thought that Snow (Arthur
Owens) was the most
important German spy in England. Snow had told him that he had been
transmitting regularly to Germany and that he had several men in the pay (AOB,
this I would like to
doubt). His chief link
was Dr. Rantzau (Major
Ritter's Abwehrstelle at Hamburg
Wohldorf). He said
that one of his fellow workers had betrayed him and mentioned the name of
name but not Biscuit;
because he was
supposed to not to be knowing this name)
in this connection. He had confided in Boon because he was a Dutch Fascist.
He also suggested that they should escape together and make for the German
Legation Legation in Dublin. Later Snow (Arthur
provide a submarine for Boon to go back to Holland.
Boon explained that Snow (Arthur Owens) had suborned one of the Prison officers and that this man, when he had had ten days leave, had taken a letter out to Lily (Bade; Owens' girlfriend); for this he had received £5. Later he had been given another letter and was to receive another £20, as Boon thought, though he was not certain of this. The warder had given Snow (Arthur Owens) a small saw and Snow (Arthur Owens) had given this to Boon, but warder had required the saw back the next day so Boon had broken it and returned everything except a small fragment which he kept. It was the same officer who took the letter and who brought the saw. This warder had complained of his pay and the conditions of his life when at exercise and this had been the reason why Snow (Arthur Owens) had got into contact with him. Snow (Arthur Owens) further told Boon that he was very interested in all questions concerning aircraft and had tried to get photographs of new types. He never discussed his German sympathies. He expected an invasion of England after the Eastern campaign (in the Balkans including Greece) and he of long range guns which would be used to bombard London. He had been in communication with the Germans for the last few years. He mentioned his second wife (Lily Bade), his baby and his son (Robert) by his first marriage but did not go into details about them. He did not discuss the British Intelligence Service.
Snow (Arthur Owens) told Boon that he was arrested at the beginning of the war but that nothing could be substantiated against him. He said that ??? was not his real name and that another identity card in his luggage at → (page 15) at the prison.
KV 2/450-1, page 15
→ at the prison. He did not suggest that he was unjustly imprisoned but said that there was plenty of evidence against of him could do nothing. he dais, "I know too much for the important people in it", but he mentioned no names. He expected later to be sent to Canada (of which country he possessed a legal passport).
He said that he was in the Air force during the last war (The Great War; 1914-1918) He also said that he gave weather reports every morning to the Germans. Boon added that Snow (Arthur Owens) had just written a letter to his wife demanding a solicitor. (letters might have been most often hold back, partially illegally according British Home Office rules!) (Nevertheless, quite common practice within the Services)
He gave Boon the impression that he was a man of no character and untruthful (and what was Boon?). Boon thought that he would get help and then desert him and that he, Boon, would be left with no money outside the prison wall (neither possessed Arthur Owens). Snow (Arthur Owens) told him that in case of invasion soldiers would come and shoot the prisoners and therefore he wanted to carry out the escape as soon as possible. Snow (Arthur Owens) is still of the opinion that the attempt at escape will be made. The method adopted was that Snow (Arthur Owens) took a soap (wax) impression from the key given him by the same warder and that Boon made a cardboard positive from it which was to be taken out by the warder to have the key made. Snow (Arthur Owens) also said that two of his men (Welsh) Englishmen?? were shot in Coventry by the Military. Boon mentioned that he had met one of them, Summer (real name Gösta Caroli, German cover-name Nilberg), when he was in Latchmere House (Camp 020?).
Snow (Arthur Owens) gave the impression that he had gone into the spy business simply in order to make money. He alleged that he could make £20,000 in a year. He said that he had a banking account in America. Questioned on this, Boon said that he thought the whole affair was a business proposition for Snow (Arthur Owens). He was in no sense an idealist (was Boon?) but Boon thought him 'just a common traitor'. He was fond of his family and anxious that his wife should not be mixed up in the business.
Boon's own dealings in the matter had never been through the warder but only through Snow (Arthur Owens) but the warder was there when Boon handed the saw back to Snow (Arthur Owens) for him.
KV 2/450-1, page 16
The warder gave the impression that he was in want of money and he asked both Snow and Boon to help to find him a better job after the war.
At this stage we asked Boon if he would be prepared to repeat his statement about the projected escapes to the Governor. He said he would and we rang up the Governor. Boon then repeated his statement so far as it concerned the escape to him (the Governor). he was then to his cell whence he brought back the cardboard positive for the key and a small portion of the saw which he left with the Governor.
Throughout the interview Boon was extremely frank (what did he expect to gain?) and both Major Robertson (TAR) and I (Mr. Masterman) from our knowledge of Snow (Arthur Owens) were of the opinion that Boon had told us the exact truth about Snow's (Arthur Owens') remarks and proposition to him. We instrumented him to make a careful note of any further remarks Which Snow (Arthur Owens) might make to him and to report them to the Governor.
B.1.a. 18.8.41 Sgd. J.C. Masterman (Captain)
KV 2/450-1, page 17 (minute 1231x)
Captain J.C. Masterman.
Snow Junior (Robert Owens)
I (Gwyer, M.I.5) have read Snow Junior (Robert Owens') statements side by side with the summary of Snows' (Arthur Owens') up till the outbreak of the war, which I have just finished. So far as I can see, there is no direct mention mention anywhere of Snow Junior (Robert Owens) having corresponded with the Germans. However the following points may be of interest:
(a) On September 23rd (notice the European tension whether a new war was eminent; it all was de-fused by the "(Agreement of Munich; of 30th September 1938, signed by: Hitler, Chamberlain, Daladier and Mussolini. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement), Snow (Arthur Owens) sought an interview with Colonel Hinchley-Cooke (B151) (B151return), at which he gave a certain amount of information about his connection with the Germans. He said then that one of his reasons for seeking an interview, was that S.J. (Robert Owens) had recently been questioned. At first he seemed to imply that this questioning had been by the British Intelligence, but later left its obscure whether he did not mean German Intelligence disguised as British policemen.
(b) On August 18th, 1939, Snow's wife (Jessie Owens), accompanied by S.J. (Robert Owens), called at Scotland Yard (D151) (D151return). She said, among other things, that one of her reasons for coming was that Snow (Arthur Owens) had attempted to recruit S.J. (Snow Junior = Robert Owens) and various friends or acquaintances. (AOB: let us not forget that there existed another drive to come to Scotland Yard as well, and that was - that not long before - Arthur Owens had left her and lived with his new girlfriend Lily Bade!) The implication was that this attempt had been made quite recently.
(c) S.J. (Snow Junior = Robert Owens) says in his statement that he wrote to the Auerbach address. (F152) (F152return) This was first used by Snow (Arthur Owens) after the visit which he made to Germany between September 17th and 23rd, 1938.
(d) S.J. (Arthur Owens) says that an acknowledgement of his letter to the Germans came over the radio. Snow (Arthur Owens) received his wireless set on January 16th, → (page 18) → 1939. It is not clear from the file at what date he first succeeded in getting into touch with the Germans.
KV 2/450-1, page 18
is not clear from the file at what date he first succeeded in getting into touch
with the Germans. However when the set was examined by S.I.S. in January,
the a resistance resistor burnt
out and was replaced in such a way that he would burn out again when Snow
first used the set. On July 13th, 1939, Snow (Arthur
Owens) wrote to
connected to Ast Hamburg)
saying that he had rectified the faulty resistance
- presumably in his wireless set. This would seem to imply that
there was no effective wireless communication before that date. If
this is so, the message about Snow Junior (Robert
Owens) could only have
come across between then and Snow's (Arthur
Owens') arrest on
September 4th (1939)
excluding the period between August 11th-24th when he was in Germany. His
statement also said that he had disposed of his wireless set on July 29th which,
if true, would shorten the period still further.
B.1.a. 8.8.1941 Sgd. J.M.A. Gwyer
KV 2/450-1, page 19 (minute 1230a)
D.B. through A.D.B.1.
On 1.8.41 Snow Junior (Robert Ownes) rang up and expressed a wish to see Major Robertson. As the Major was not available, he was interviewed by Captain Masterman at the Piccadilly Hotel. A note of this interview is attached.
As a consequence of this interview, Snow Junior (Robert Owens) wrote the following letter to Major Robertson (TAR):-
"I have information regarding the means which enable me to gain entrance and exit into occupied and enemy countries.
"Therefore I hereby offer my services to the State.
"If you will arrange for me to see you as soon as possible, we will be able to fully discuss the details of my proposal.
Snow Junior (Robert Owens) was requested to come to the War Office (likely Room 055) and was interviewed by Major Robertson (TAR) and Captain Masterman at 16.30 hours on 6.8.41
S.J. (Snow Junior = Robert Owens) was asked if he had offered to give information which might be of services to the country. He said that he had, and volunteered the following information.
Some days ago the thought on Saturday, 26th July (1939?), but this date could ve verified he had arranged to meet his fiancée in Trafalgar Square between 12.0 and 1.0. He did not arrive till about 12.50 and consequently was able to spend a short time only with his fiancée, who had to turn to her work. He therefore lunched alone at Mars Italian Restaurant, Frith Street, Soho. A man sat down opposite to him and after about a quarter of an hour said to him, "You are Robert Owens" This man appeared to know a great deal about him, and in a vague and allusive (indirect) manner asked S.J. (Robert Owens) to join up with "them". S.J. (Robert Owens) refused, and the man got nasty (offensive).
From this very vague approach S.J. (Robert Owens) declared that he gathered that he had been invited to join the German system, and that he could in consequence easily go to occupied territory, preferably France, or even to Germany itself, and there be of use to this country. He asserted many times that the man made no definite statement or offer to him, but that the man was quite sure what the proposal was.
Questioned about this story, he said that he is well known at the Mars Restaurant, though probably not by name, and that he usually goes to the same part of the restaurant. The man said that he had followed S.J. (Robert Owens) near his fiancée's house in Surrey, but thought it was dangerous to contact him there, and had followed him to the Mars Restaurant, presumably from Trafalgar Square. The man looked like an Englishman. He was very vague in all his statements, but suggested that things were going very badly in this country, that losses from U-boat attack were very high and that England would certainly lose the war. He said that S.J. (Robert Owens) could make money by "joining up with us (the Germans?)". (These → (page 20) → words, according to S.J. (Snow Junior = Robert Owens), were used)
KV 2/450-1, page 20
→ words, according to S.J. (Snow Junior = Robert Owens), were used) He also said, "You should know all about that now". The two together in the Mars for about forty minutes.
Pressed to give any other remarks made by the stranger. S.J. (Robert Owens) professed to be unable to remember them (apparently junior isn't as smart as hid dad!), and insisted again on the vagueness of the conversation. At the later stage in the interview, S.J. (Robert Owens) gave the information that the two left the Mars (restaurant) and walked to to a small restaurant off St. James Square. They had tea together there, and remained for about fifteen minutes. The man said, "I wish you would change your mind:. S.J. (Robert Owens) said: "I'm fed up with the whole thing". They parted at about three o'clock.
Throughout S.J. (Robert Owens) was most evasive (slippery), and produced his account of the incident place by piece and very unconvincingly. On further questioning , he said that the man used these words: "We have been up to your fiancée's place, and we followed you to the restaurant, The man called him "name deleted" the name by which he is usually known.
He (Robert Owens) gave the following description of the man:
Height, about 5' 6". Stocky and broad. Fair hair, Clean shaven. A thin but not sharp nose. No glasses. Aged about 45. Wore a light greyish blue suit. Well dressed all well-spoken.
On further questioning, S.J. (Robert Owens) said that he had not seen his mother since about January (1941), when he had stopped sending her money because she pestered (harassed) him. He had last seen his father when he visited him in Stafford Goal (Prison) some months ago. He had said nothing about this new episode to Snow's Wife (consequently Lily Bade) or to anyone else. He has no idea how to get into touch with the man again. He admitted that he might be making a great deal out of nothing; that his statement that he was able to get into occupied France was only his own reading of the situation. He felt quite sure that he had had an offer made to him to join the German espionage system. He now thought that the proposal that he had made in the first interview with Captain Masterman, that he should be sent to Lisbon by plane, was not a good idea, and that he ought to go by ship. He thought that his best use would be to take over another man. W?ho could speak fluent French to contact our agents in France or in Germany, and to bring back information himself and bring back to us.
It was pointed out to him that he had no qualifications which fitted him for such a task; that he would never be trusted; that the safety of other persons would never be risked in his hands, and that he grossly over-estimated his own potentialities and capabilities. There seemed no obvious way at all in which he could be of any assistance.
He had insisted throughout that his whole conduct was dictated by his wish to improve the position of his father, and that he was prepared to take any risks to secure this end. When it was represented to him that his father's case was quite independent of his, and that he apparently had nothing to offer except his very unconvincing story of a contact with a supposed German agent, who might, for all he had told us, only be trying to gain his assistance in some illegal or criminal enterprise in this country, S.J. (Robert Owens) became piqued, and incautiously suggested that the → (page 21) → German would probably wish to contact him and would know a good deal about him, and that he was quite certain that this was a good German espionage approach.
KV 2.450-1, page 21
→ German would probably wish to contact him and would know a good deal about him, and that he was quite certain that this was a good German espionage approach. He then rashly (hastily) admitted that he had himself done something for the Germans which would encourage them to seek his assistance. He evidently wished to remove the impression that he did not believe his story, and that at the same time he exaggerate his own importance and possibly thus to secure well paid employment for himself.
He therefore said that in the summer just before the war he had mapped the aerodromes of South London, mentioning especially Biggin Hill and Kenley, for the Germans.
Having made his admission, he realised that he had committed a blunder of tactics, and he refused to say what he had done with the plans after he had made them. The sentences: "He refused to say what he did with the plans after he had made them, because he was afraid that if he replied the answer would do harm to his father", was written down and read to him slowly many times. He agreed that it was a correct statement. It was pointed out to him that, if he persisted in his refusal, only the worst interpretation for himself and his father could be placed upon his behaviour.
After a long delay he finally said that he would tell us what he did with the plans, and he then admitted that he sent them to Auerbach Battery Company, Hamburg (G153) (G153return), which he knew to be a cover address for the German Intelligence H.Q. at Hamburg (Ast-X). he obtained this address from his father. (AOB, I would like to comment, that this address was already put on the suspicion list and all outgoing mail to quite many suspicious addresses in Germany all were censored; hence likely the map had been legally removed. As how otherwise (G153) is guiding you to a genuine letter of Auerbach?) He addressed the packet to himself at one post office in London, collected it and re-mailed it to Hamburg. He declared that he did this on his own initiative, and that his father was angry when he was told after the package had been sent. he thought himself that his father would swing over to Germany at the beginning of the war, though he now considered him to be entirely pro-British. He himself had sent over the plans out of a sense of adventure, and he had received no payment; but a message had been sent over the radio to say that the Germans were very pleased with what had been done. He therefore believed that this present approach was the result of his previous act of his. He had helped his father with the radio transmissions, but had had no dealings himself with the Germans after this act.
The following sentence was then written down and read to him two or three times: "He said that he had no further information to given and that he had kept back nothing which he knew about his own father's dealings with the Germans".
He begged at this statement for some time, but eventually declared that it was correct.
It was pointed out to him (Robert Owens) that a report would have to be made to higher authority about the interview, and that he might expect to be summoned to make a statement which would probably be a sworn statement, and that he would be well advised to tell us anything more which he had on his mind; but he declared that there was nothing to add. The seriousness of his position was indicated to him, and he was advised, but not instructed, to draw up his own complete statement of what had occurred at the Mars Restaurant, and of what he had told us about his previous actions, and send it to Major Robertson. He was also told that, if the stranger contacted him again, he was advised to keep in touch with him and to give immediate information by telephone to Major Robertson.
KV 2/450-1, page 22
He protested at the end of the interview that he was taking great risks to assist his father, and that his cooperation was not being welcomed in the spirit which he had expected. This gave an opportunity of explaining to him with some vigour (force), what our opinion of him was and the extreme seriousness of the position in which he had placed himself.
May we have your decision with regard to the next steps to be taken in this case?
B.1.a. 7.8.41 Sgd. J.C. Masterman
(AOB: I remember that in the course of the Arthur Owens Case, that the latter complained once that someone had bashed Robert at his school or at the place where he worked)
RSS (R.S.S.) intercepts
KV 2/450-1, page 30 (minute 1167b)
B.1.A agents. (M.I.5 agents) ISOS (Manual codes) Hamburg-Near East. ISOS Italy (the key areas)
PF 45241 (Owens)
PF 47899 Krafft
Snow (Arthur Owens) @ 3505
?.4 41 Hamburg-Italy. For Major Ritter. For information. Received today following message from 3504 (Owens' captivity on 23rd April 1941; thus it must have happened before this date.) Impossible to carry on (was he already arrested?). Will call you eleven thirty to see any further instructions (it might even be, that this was communicated without Owens' commitment) If not I am going ...
24.4.41 Hamburg-Italy. cont. to pack up all gear. Regards our answer, agree. Standing by eleven days. Best wishes. Regards Kpt.z.S. Herbert Wichmann (Leiter Ast Hamburg throughout the war) (N.B. all relayed message in English except for "our answer")
1.6.41 Cyrenaica-Hamburg. Please keep me informed in the case of 3570 (= Celery; Walter Dicketts) Shall try myself (Major Ritter; please bear in mind, that already for some months Major Ritter was no longer committed to cases on behalf Ast Hamburg. Only in the case where Arthur Owens was engaged he still took time off to follow the Owens matters) Continuous observation absolutely necessary. As before always vet him in pairs, Question 3504 (Johnny; real name Arthur Owens) thoroughly concerning sudden illness. Something wrong there. Sgd. Ritter.
KV 2/450-1, page 32 (minute 1127b)
My dear Robertson (TAR),
I return the exercise book in which Snow (Arthur Owens) did his ciphering. I have submitted it to experts who pronounce it to be the same system as that employed for Group 'III' messages (counter-espionage) (Whereas Owens was committed to Section 'I' intelligence) but, the (code) experts say, the cipher officers who use Group III are not unfortunately so accommodating as to use the same pattern of blanks in each message. The experts estimate that this reduces the security of the cipher by about 70%.
It would be interesting to know whether Snow (Arthur Owens) has always used the same pattern of blanks or whether he was told to do so comparatively recently. If the latter is the case, the precise date on which he received these instructions might give the clue as to when the Doctor (Major Ritter) first suspected him, if indeed he has suspected him.
Signature unreadable, but likely on behalf of someone of S.I.S.
Major Robertson (TAR), M.I.5.
KV 2/450-1, page 33 (minute 1123a)
My dear Robertson (TAR),
I have at least received a further report from our representative in Lisbon about Snow's (Arthur Owens') activities there, but I am afraid that it is not really very helpful.
Snow (Arthur Owens) saw our representative altogether six times, the first time being in the first week of March. On two of these occasions Snow (Arthur Owens) was accompanied by Celery (Walter Dicketts). He told our representative that he had received over £11,000, of which he would be allowed to keep £5,000 for himself and use the balance for running his organisation. Snow failed to provide a satisfactory answer to our representative's question "How can the Germans - knowing you have been caught out by the British - entrust you with so much money and also with sabotage material?". He told our representative that the Germans intended to run the existing compromised organisation together with a new organisation which would communicate by boat with the Channel islands.
Snow (Arthur Owens) stated that throughout his stay in Portugal the Germans never asked him about his contacts with the British, now did they ask him to report about our organisation in Portugal.
Our representative made use of Snow's (Arthur Owens') contacts in Lisbon to obtain information about one of Duarte's (Doebler's) German contacts to find out something about Ruth Wille (H154) (H154return) (he had seen Snow (Arthur Owens) in her company at the Arcadia (Cabaret), and also to make preliminary contacts with Olivier Regnault.
Snow (Arthur Owens) also reported to our representative about the Siboney courier, who left Lisbon for New York about the 16th March. He said that the Germans had important documents for the united States which they were sending by the hand of an officer or steward of this vessel. He also gave a description of the courier, but this did not enable our representative to identify him before the vessel left.
Our representative never saw Celery (Walter Dicketts) alone.
Sgd. hand-writing unreadable but surely S.I.S. (M.I.6)
Major T.A. Robertson (TAR), M.I.5
KV 2/450-1, page 35 (minute 1113a)
From B.18 To B.2.a. Major Robertson (M.I.5)
It might interest you to know that the torch batteries that Snow (Arthur Owens) brought in (from his February / March 1941 in Lisbon) which contained detonators and time clocks were made in England. They have been identified. The torch, however, was made in Anstatt or Bodenbach.
PA Snow (Arthur Owens's file)
Date 18.8.41 Signature Rotend xxd?
(AOB, the British S.O.E. dropped enormous quantities of sabotage and weapons materials over France; of which statistically 30 à 40 % felt in German hands. They used this materials, as to cover their own operations, as the origin of the materials was what counted and it was easy to blame the British for all sorts of sabotage acts; also abroad.
KV 2/450-1, page 36 (minute 1115b)
April (23rd), 1941
Dear Major Michelson,
"Snow" (Arthur Owens)
- - -
Enclosed herewith is a Detention Order made under Defence Regulation 18B against the above man (Arthur Owens) who is now resident in your district. I should be obliged if you would have this Order executed as soon as possible and the necessary arrangements made for Snow (Arthur Owens) to be conveyed to Stafford Goal (Prison) has already been warned that Snow is being sent to Stafford.
Would you be so good enough to get into touch with Captain J.C. Masterman of M.I.5. whose telephone number is Regent 5060 Extension 217 and inform him of the precise time at which it is proposed to arrest Snow (Arthur Owens).
Name not reproduced.
Major C. Micholson, M.C.
Chief Constable of Surrey
Photographs of internal Machines disguised as Fountain pens etc. brought in by Snow (Arthur Owens)
KV 2/450-1, page 39 (minute 974?)
B.2.a. Major Robertson (TAR)
You may care to see the attached photographs (shown next).
(1.) Dismantled pencil and fountain pen.
A. Detonator, B. Potassium chlorate and sugar.
α Celluloid diaphragm
β Iron ring with teeth
γ Ampoule containing sulphuric acid
δ Rubber pad
(2) Pencil and fountain pen assembled for use.
(3) Right angle views of torch batteries.
1. Striker; 2. screw cap to attach wooden block to striker tube; 3. main detonator; 4. trigger detonator; 5. clock face; 6. striker spring; 7. wood; 8. brass container.
(4.) (a) X-Ray photograph of genuine torch battery
(b) X-Ray photograph of torch battery containing time clock und detonator.
(c) X-Ray photograph of shaving soap containing time clock and detonator.
(5.) X-Ray photograph of thin of talcum powder containing time clock and detonators.
KV 2/450-1, pages 40 - 41
Photographs 1 and 2
KV 2/450-1, page 42
6. X-Ray photograph of (shaving) soap in celluloid box showing detonators.
7. (a) Torch battery with top removed.
(b) Time clock and detonators which were inside.
(c) Time clock part from above showing tube down which striker comes. There is a layer of felt to protect the detonators which can be seen in
(d) Wood Block containing very sensitive detonator and less sensitive detonator which screw on in series.
KV 2/450-1, pages 43 - 46
All 4 photographs obeying to Crown Copyright
Photograph series, albeit it not in a correct number succession
KV 2/450-1, page 47 (minute 111a)
Interrogation of Snow (Arthur Owens) by Major Robertson (TAR) and Captain Masterman on 10th April, 1941.
(AOB, likely recorded by short-hand, our by means of sound-recording)
R. Will you sit here.
S. I generally sit here.
R. I will come alongside you, if you like ... Well, it is about 9.30 or quarter to ten ... I had to memorise this ... Of stating your case in front of our witnesses.
R. And both together in the same room at the same time, And we have come to the conclusion that the only line that we can take with regard to your particular case is that, as far as you are concerned in connection with us, you are no longer of any use to us. We are therefore proposing that you should send a message over tomorrow, re transmission saying that you are exceedingly ill, and that your nerve has gone, and that you are not prepared to go on with the game. Is that all right?
R. And also ask for instructions from the other side as to what you are to do with the various equipment that you have got.
R. On our rendering (interpretation) of the case naturally the Doctor (Major Ritter, whom by the way, was no longer 'guiding' Arthur Owens, as Ritter was committed to endeavours in Rommel's DAK) must expect that the British Intelligence Service know exactly what messages is being sent over by you.
S. Quite, quite - I follow.
R. Therefore this will give him furiously to think, and it throws the into his hands. Do you follow?
S. Exactly, Quite.
R. Now that is the situation.
S. Can't I do anything to help the country at all?
R. What do you suggest you should do?
KV 2/450-1, page 48
S. I will do anything.
R. I mean, what description.
S. Well, I am not a fool/ I have a good education, and I have had excellent experience, and if my education and my experience is wasted --
R. You had ample opportunity all these months of doing jobs. haven't you?
S. I have done them, too.
R. I mean, apart from the one you have been doing for us.
S. In what way?
R. Well, I mean it would have been quite simple for you to have kept on job with the name or words being made invisible, for instance, or some other concern of that description.
S. Well, I did not want complications at all in that way.
R. I mean, quite frankly, you have been tremendously idle (indolent or lazy).
S. Oh, there is no doubt about that. I have bothered with anything.
R. No. You have done nothing. You have just lived on the fact of the land with an enormous salary - a salary which would make a Cabinet Minister's salary look stupid at the present rate of taxation.
R. Well then, roughly speaking, you will accept that position, will you?
S. Well, if you say so, I have nothing to say. I should certainly like to do something for the country, all the same, and I certainly have got experience, and shall do what I can. Not that I want to be paid for anything.
Masterman But you see the difficulty; that as they know all about the set, and we are controlling it, there is no value in it.
S. No, I shouldn't look at it that way.
KV 2/450-1, page 49
M. We should like to hear if you have any other - how you do look at it.
S. The Doctor (Major Ritter whom is no longer in charge) seems to think that it is an ideal position from their standpoint, because they seem to think that the position I am in now with your people, that I have got a free hand, and more or less an open hand to do more or less what I like, and they can send in people by this motor launch business, and I can go round anywhere I like with this other transmitter, get all the dope and send it over to them - that's what they think, and be in a far better position than if I've been in before, when I was working as an ordinary agent. That's the way he (Major Ritter) look at it.
R. Exactly, but how does that help us?
S. Well, it just means this - you can send over dope over that transmitter that you know definitely is wrong, but he (Ritter's successor) thinks is right. (AOB, this is just where it went eventually wrong, as gathered intelligence had to be conveyed onto the O.K.W. (Wehrmacht High Command) as well. And this section, which was manned by the soundly trained specialists; possessing all information available. This was the real reason why the Allied great endeavours Operation Fortitude did not really achieved where it once was aiming for. The German forces weren't distracted from the Normandy to other sectors of the European Continent; beside what Hitler's judgements once were)
R. He (they) knows it is controlled by us.
S. No, he doesn't.
R ... outlines a case to you for setting up another transmitter for collecting sabotage material for running agencies in this country.
S. A wonderful scheme.
R. Such a wonderful scheme that it compares favourably with all the other wonderful schemes that he (Major Ritter) has put up to you, none of which has come ever off. We have exceedingly little benefit from any of the schemes that the Doctor (Major Ritter) has put up to you, and you yourself have said to me that he has an American attitude towards life, and that he has wonderful schemes one moment and scrap them the next in favour of another one.
S. That is quite true.
R. Well now, he puts all these up, I suggest, as sort of smoke screens. He gives you a fairly large sum of moneym which he must be a fool if he thinks you can get into the country. he must also be rather stupid in thinking that you can get through the explosives, and things of that description.
S. Well, he thought - -
R. Did you give him an assurance, then, that you get them through?
S. Certainly. Well, he said he could easily get them through. I → (page 50)
KV 2/450-1, page 50
→ mean, I should have thought I could have done.
R. Then presumably he must have realised that you might have been searched coming back into the country?
S. Well, he (Major Ritter) didn't think so.
M. Although he knew that you were controlled by us (British Customs), you think that he would swallow (bite) it that you wouldn't searched or looked at when you came back?
S. I didn't know - from the export man I didn't think so, because he said, 'You are in a very nice position'. He said, 'We have a man in that position before in France'.
R. You see, it is absolutely inconceivable (unthinkable) that if if he intercepts your story that you were walked in on by us two and a half months ago, that we would allow you absolutely carte blanche to do anything that you liked without checking up on you. Absolutely inconceivable.
S. .... He thought I was absolutely free to do it.
R. That you were absolutely free? And that we weren't looking after you at all; were nowhere near you?
S. I quite agree.
R. Did you arrange that beforehand?
S. Arrange what? For tickets to sail?
S. But he said he would never say anything. (?)
M. Well, I think it would be interesting to hear, Snow (Arthur Owens) if you have any other plan that you would like us to consider before we embark on this plan which we have outlined to you.
S. Well, actually that was the Doctor's (Major Ritter's) idea. You see, that was the Doctor's plan, and he thought it was an excellent plan.
M. I am concerned to know what you think would be an excellent plan, not what the Doctor (Major Ritter) thought would be an excellent plan. It is no doubt → (page 51) → an excellent plan from his (Major Ritter's) point of view.
KV 2/450-1, page 51
→ an excellent plan from his (Major Ritter's) point of view.
S. Well, if he (Major Ritter) intends sending these people over by this motor launch, I think it a good plan too. He (Major Ritter) is certainly very very much upset by losing all these men by parachute. And he (Major Ritter) says he has lost them, and I believe he has too.
M. Isn't he (Major Ritter) rather upset at having lost all the contacts which you are supposed to have had, in the shape of Charlie (Charles Eschborn), GW (Gwilym Williams), Biscuit (Sam McCarthy)?
S. He didn't mention that at all.
R. He was more interested in this other man?
R. GW, Charlie ↑
S. He wasn't a bit interested in them at all.
R. His own man (Arthur Owens) is more important to him than anyone I can get?
M. But doesn't he (Major Ritter) regard you and those as his men too?
S. He doesn't regard those as his men - he regards me (Arthur Owens) as his man, but not them at all. I don't think they mean anything to him (Major Ritter) at all, not in the slightest. If he lost them all, it would nothing to him (Major Ritter). he is very cold-blooded when it comes down to business.
R. One has to be in this game - very.
S. No, he (Major Ritter) doesn't worry the slightest at all. (AOB, https://www.cdvandt.org/druecke-vera-waelti.htm is a good example of Ritter's cold-blooded attitude) The only thing he was upset over was this man's only son (US citizen?) business.
R. One has to be in this game - very.
S. No, he doesn't worry the slightest at all. The only thing he was upset over was this man's (Ritter's) only son business. That was a very personal friend of his.
R. Might I just have from you again, although I have read all your statements on the subject, and I know well - might I just have from you again the conversation which occurred between you and the Doctor (Major Ritter) with regard to sending of the £100 to Tate (Wulf Schmidt) at a Poste Restante address.
KV 2/450-1, page 52
R. As ... as possible.
S. Yes. He asked me if £100 had been sent to this Post Office.
S. And I said, as far as I knew it had been sent.
S. And he (Major Ritter), 'Well, my God', he said, 'is the man all right?' I said, 'I don't know', or words to that effect. I said, 'Why?' 'Well', he (Major Ritter) said, that is a very good friend of mine, and I hope it's all right, and he conveyed to me that he (Tate, with the alias of Wulf Schmidt; whom was a real German person, who was later forced to become a double-cross agent as to survive the war) was a very great personal friend of his, this man. (Wulf Schmidt) (KV 2/61 - KV 2/62)
R. But he must have appreciated that we sent that £100.
S. Well, it is not our concern?, there is no question of that.
R. Does he (Major Ritter) regard the whole of our Intelligence Service as being decadent and incompetent?
S. He doesn't seem to have a very the rest neglected.
M. Have your received any report yet about your doctor's (Major Ritter's) examination? (He, Major Ritter, left already in the early months of 1941 the services in Hamburg and was transferred to Rommel's North Africa)
S. Not yet. No. I had seven or eight radio photographs taken the day before yesterday, but I have heard nothing further from him (Major Ritter) at all. I am going down next words made invisible to see what I get.
M. (after interval) I am told your X-ray reports have not come in yet.
S. They haven't come in? I see.
R. Well, you were saying just then - you were talking just then, but I can't remember what you were saying --
S. Oh, that they haven't a very good impression.
R. They haven't a very good impression of what?
S. Of your people.
R. Of our people here. They think we're saps (juices)? Up to a point?
KV 2/450-1, page 53
S. Yes. yes.
R. Yes, quite ...
S. When I went up there to see him (Major Ritter) he told me about it.
R. Yes. But you have no more to tell me about this man (Major Ritter) Tate (Wulf Schmidt) at all - about the Doctor's (Major Ritter's) observation about him. Did he give you any indication that he thought that, from his point of view, the man was still all right, or did he think, shall me say, that the man had been taken by us?
S. He didn't know.
R. He didn't know. I see. He hadn't any idea who he was outside of the fact that he was a personal friend of the Doctor's. (AOB: After the war Tate / Wulf Schmidt - expressed hat the cooperated (double-crossed) as to survive the war)
S. That's all. I feel quite sure that he was a great friend the way he spoke about him. He said he was a good friend of his, and he didn't wanted him damned.
R. Quite. And you have no more to say about that.
S. Nothing at all.
R. Well now, I am coming onto the second point now. We have been through your statements, as I said before, very carefully. We have been through your statements, as I said before, very carefully. We have been through Celery's (Walter Dicketts) statements very carefully, and we are unanimous in our opinion that you did not tell Celery (Walter Dicketts) that the game was blown before he went into Germany.
S. Well, I did tell him before he went into Germany.
R. Well, that is our opinion, that that being the case, you definitely sent a man on a most dangerous mission.
S. That is a lie.
R. You sent knowingly, I maintain, to put the worst construction on it, to his death probably.
S. I did not. I did nothing of the kind. And I can prove that definitely, by Doebler. Doebler knows it. Because Doebler was at the meeting, and Doebler wasn't tight. He heard every word of it.
KV 2/450-1, page 54
M. Who was tight then? You were?
M. Who was tight then?
S. I wasn't tight when I went to the meeting. No.
R. But I gathered that this exchange of confidence between Celery (Walter Dicketts) and you took place, according to you, before you went to the meeting?
S. What confidence do you mean?
R. Informing him that he game was up.
S. I believe I told him in the room.
R. In which room?
S. But I know him in in front of the Doctor (Major Ritter) definitely. In the room there.
W. Doesn't it seem to you that it was a very treacherous act, to say the last of it, not to tell him before he got to the Doctor (Major Ritter).
S. I am positive that I told him before he went to the Doctor (Major Ritter).
W. Positive you told him before he went to the Doctor?
S. Yes, I am positive I did, because I went up to see (AOB, likely the S.I.S. representative in Lisbon) as soon as I knew - as I knew - as soon as I arrived, and the Doctor told me that I went not name made invisible but name made invisible and I asked name made invisible (the fore called S.I.S. representative, I suppose) to get in touch with him somehow, because I wanted to warn him. Name or word made invisible said, I can't do it'. I said, "Can't you get somebody in Madeira to get in touch with name or word made invisible was very word or name made invisible. Definitely.
W. And yet you have been saying all these days that you are not sure whether you warned him before the meeting or not.
S. I feel sure I did.
R. You are certain you did?
S. I am pretty sure I did. Definitely. Positive, I am sure I did. Otherwise, what I did. Otherwise, what did I want to take him up to my room for?
KV 2/450-1, page 55
M. Then why have you been saying all this time that you didn't know if you had told him before the meeting or not?
S. I feel sure I did.
M. Then why have you told us that you didn't so often in these last few days?
S. Because I like to be a hundred per cent sure.
M. But you can't be a hundred per cent sure about that. You are stamping yourself as a most unreliable person. Here was a person who was going to an interview at which dangerous news must come out, as you knew, and you didn't warn him - you aren't' sure if you warned him before he went.
S. I feel sure I did. Listen. Celery (Walter Dicketts) knew a hell of a lot more than I knew he knew, and it came right from here, you see. I knew it afterwards. I didn't know at the time. I didn't know how much that man Celery (Walter Dicketts). I knew he knew a lot. He told me a lot of things before we left England. Suppose that man went into Germany and I hadn't told him anything, and I knew that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew about me - how d'you think I'd feel. Put yourself in my position over that.
R. That is what I have been doing all along.
S. I wouldn't have left hi, at Lisbon. I can't understand it. I wouldn't have left Lisbon.
R. But you didn't leave Lisbon.
S. I wouldn't have come back here.
W. Now put yourself in Celery's place, and consider about a man who is supposed to be your friend who thinks it is unimportant that he is not sure whether he warned him at once of his terrible danger when he arrived, when he and a minute or so to do it.
S. But I say, I am sure I did.
W. And yet when you came back here you are uncertain about it, for four or five days. Knowing all the implications, you are certain if you warned him before he got in the meeting, or only after he got there, → (page 56) → when it would have been too late to safe him.
KV 2/450-1, page 56
→ when it would have been too late to safe him.
S. I am sure I did.
R. Listen; this is the second most important event that occurred to you during this recent to Lisbon. The first most important event so far as you and your skin are concerned, so far as your livelihood is concerned, that the Doctor (Major Ritter) confronted you with the knowledge that he had with regard to your cooperation in the British Intelligence here. (AOB: this blow was the entire fault on behalf of M.I.5.! They are to be blamed first and second!) And the second, I maintain, is that - the point which we we have just raised. You are certain on the first point I expect you to be as certain. You have not got a bad memory at all. If you care to try and remember events, you can. There is no question about whatever.
S. Yes, I know that. Yes. Because I went to (some British representative?) to get into touch with Celery (Walter Dicketts arrived by boat via Gibraltar).
R. Yes. For that purpose.
S. You can get in touch with Celery and ask him to get in touch with him --
R. And yet, when you are confronted face to face with Celery you can't remember whether you told him that the Doctor (Major Ritter, Owens' handling officer) knew all about the racket, or not.
S. Well I told him the Doctor knew all about it.
M. But you have been saying all the time that you can't remember if you told him in that hour, or ten minutes, whichever it may be, before you went to the hotel, before you went to the meeting, or whether you only told him when you got there. For one of your intelligence, that is impossible. You must know, and do know, with exactitude whether you told him there or not. We have his (Celery / Walter Dicketts) perfectly clear that you never told him or warned him at all. statement.
S. I am sure I told him. I am sure I told him. Positive. I am positive I told him.
M. Let me put this point quite clearly to you. We get a perfectly clear account from him (Celery / Walter Dicketts) that you never told him. We get an account from you, or series of account, in which you say at one time, 'I can't remember if I did or not;' at another, 'that I told him only when we got in front of the Doctor (Major Ritter);' at another 'that I am positive I told him before we went there (meeting Major Ritter).' Is it likely that unprejudiced people are going to → (page 57) → believe a vague and changeable tale like that against his clear testimony the other way?
KV 2/450-1, page 57
→ believe a vague and changeable tale like that against his clear testimony the other way?
S. Quite. I can quite understand your point.
R. I am sure you do.
S. No. I am positive I told him before we got there.
R. Now, there is a second point - if we leave that for a moment. It seems to me that when you were told by by the Doctor (Major Ritter) that you when you first arrived - -
R. That you behaved, to say the least of it, with the poorest judgement in admitting that there is no evidence that that was not just a routine question on his part just to try you out, and that you gave away as easily as that. (AOB, they weren't poorly aware of M.I.5's apparent failure - in supplying a priority airline ticket booking, whereas there existed waiting lists. Arrogance is often apparent within state-controlled organisations; most difficult to admit the blaming truth! (K157) (K157return) and (L158) (L158return)
S. I don't know. That is the second time I had that. The first time he (Major Ritter) had proof.
R. How do you mean he had proof?
S. He had proof in black and white the first time. (please reconsider the just foregoing references: K157 and L 158)
R. Proof of what?
S. He had letters from my wife (Jessie) about it.
R. But this is a question of having proof that we were controlling the transmitter. You had no reason to suppose that they (the Germans) knew that - that he wasn't just trying you out. You gave it away at once. (again a good example how the "tunnel vision of civil servants" can be!) (and: being put forward by someone whom never have really been in a similar, fearful, situation!)
S. (change or record) ...coming as a shock to me.
R. Surely your first instinct would be to keep your secret if you could, wouldn't it?
S. I did try to.
R. But you didn't try to. You immediately said, 'Yes, you are quite right. That is the whole thing'. That is the whole thing.
S. Well, I was questioned. I didn't want to ....
KV 2/450-1, page 58
M. But your immediate answer was, 'Yes, that is true, and they have been controlling me all the time".
S. I said you had walked on on me two and a half months ago. I didn't know what proof he had to that extent - what he knew about it.
M. But you once assumed that he knew everything.
S. I did definitely. I though he knew the whole works.
M. Well, you must see, surely, that a person who is capable of making a mistake as big as that, which you just admitted to be a mistake, can't be regarded as likely to be of much use to us.
S. Well, I suppose we all make mistakes.
M. Do you think now he did really know before, or that he just got it out you then. (Wide-vision and sense for their own short-comings is quite lacking, apparently)
S. I think he (Major Ritter's service) knew something (indeed caused by tactical mistakes inside M.I.5!). I definitely think that he knew something.
M. But you aren't at all sure?
S. I am not positive. But I think he knows something.
M. Something? Do you think he knew about the transmission to - -
S. He did know it.
W. He didn't? (still at least expressing a lack of sense what internally had gone wrong)
S. I don't think he did.
M. You don't think he did - until he asked you?
W. You are quite sure -
R. but your belief is that he did not know until he asked you then?
KV 2/450-1, page 59
S. No, I don't think so.
W. And therefore, if you hadn't made that mistake, the whole of the transmission would be going all right?
S. I think they would have been going on still. I think that that was my mistake. (he, after all, became apparently quite dazed!)
R. Then you see that it was a slip of disastrous consequences in that case, don't you?
S. It was definitely a slip of my part. There is no doubt of that at all.
R. Are there any points on that?
S. I think not
R. Tomorrow (see pages 61 +) you must say that your nerves and health have gone, that you can't go on any longer, and that you are what are you to do with your explosives and with your (W/T) sets. Instructions will be given to the (M.I.5 controlled) operator to send that over (to the Germans), and we shall have to consider what becomes of you afterwards. (by-passing Home Office legallities)
S. Why don't you let Celery carry on?
R. How would you suggest that?
S. The Doctor (Major Ritter once Referatsleiter I L, of Ast Hamburg; but in the meantime succeeded by someone else, as he became engaged with Rommel's DAK and Laszlo Almásy's operation. Which apparently wasn't noticed by M.I.5; albeit that through RSS and MSS they must have been warned before) has got the plan all lined up, and by Celery has told me he is hundred per cent in regard to it.
R. .... reactions of the Doctor. Have you anything more to say. I should like Snow (Arthur Owens) to develop that suggestion a little. I am not sure whether I rightly understood it.
S. Well, Mr. Celery (Walter Dicketts) told me that he was hundred per cent with the Doctor (Major Ritter, no longer in charge, on his own request!), and if anything can be done with it, it would suggest that he carries on, as the Doctor (Major Ritter) has told him to buy this boat for that purpose (related to communication with Welshmen). What arrangements were made in Germany I know nothing about whatever. He hasn't told me, but I presume that it what it is for. (?)
R. As you say, we can consider the matter as a leisure.
S. The plan that the Doctor (once, Major Ritter) has worked out, it can be worked all right. There is no question about that.
R. Snow (Arthur Owens), you are quite clear on the plan, aren't you that he has → (page 60) → worked out.
KV 2/450-1, page 60
→ worked out.
R. Well, we are clear on the plan so far as you have described it to us.
S. I mean, you understand it, do you?
R. I imagine we do, yes. I gather the Celery (Walter Dicketts, KV 2/674) has got to buy a boat, and drive over to the Channel Islands. He has got to collect there, after giving various indications as to who he is ... (end of record) what happens this time forward, and in the mean time, if you want to communicate anything to us, in writing or otherwise, you can - when you have thought over this interview. (AOB, interrogation)
S. Yes. I see.
R. But I don't think that we need say any more at this state, do you?
S. Well - - -
R. If you whish to make any suggestions of that sort you had better put them in writing after you have thought it over. Right, that's all.
S. Who can I write to?
R. Just communicate with the Major Robertson (TAR)? You know my address.
S. Thank you.
R. Whether you can give me to read any communications you have got - - - That is all right.
S. - - -
R. Yes. She (his girlfriend Lily Bade?) will be waiting in the car for you.
S. Thank you very much.
KV 2/450-1, page 61 (minute 1110a)
Interrogation by Mr. D.G. White (M.I.5)
And so I (D.G. White) want to ask you a few further questions. I am able to look at it perhaps more independently as I haven't met you before and I am just looking at the story as the story of something in connection with the German Intelligence Service. Well now on the first points your arriving in Lisbon (February 1941) this revelation (disclosure) which the Doctor (Major Ritter) made to you and the surprise which it must have occasioned, you told that to the British Authorities on this occasion first that the whole thing was blown and that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew about your being under British control.
Answer Arthur Owens). I believe it was when I met your man (?) at the Embassy.
Wasn't that the first or second occasion that you visited the Embassy?
A. The first time I went to the Embassy, I think it was when I met Colonel (name made invisible) first. No, I didn't tell him. (page 67 this was on 26.2.41 when he met with the Air Attaché for the first time)
You didn't tell him.
A. I think it was when I met your man there. The second or third.
This seems me a rather important factor. I must press you on this. Here is the tremendous revelation of vital importance to us you didn't tell them till the third time.
A. I am not sure it was second or third time.
In any case it wasn't the first, that's quite clear.
A. I am sure it wasn't the first.
Now, what was in your mind in not telling them first time.
A. Well, I didn't know anything about it as a matter of fact, or I should have been told them then.
KV 2/450-1, page 62 (V214) ↓↓↓↓↓↓ (V214return)
Well, you must have assumed that the thing was of vital importance from our point of view and the sooner we knew the better.
A. Well, the point is this. I didn't know whether it was in order to tell Colonel (name made invisible, but likely belonging to S.I.S.). I didn't know whether he had any connection with the Service at all. I do know that you people don't reveal from one department to another what is being done and I didn't know if I would put my foot in it if I did. I was entirely on my own and I had no instructions to get in touch with anybody there.
And you were quite reassured when you met the person you described as our man?
A. Well, yes. I was very guarded at first even then I didn't know who he was. I had no instructions who he was. But after I had a talk with him, I more or less read between the lines and I thought he was somebody then whom I could ... well, I had to talk to somebody. I was in such a state that I couldn't carry on. I mean I was so ill and that. I just couldn't carry on that was all.
And you were quite reassured when you met the person you described as our man?
A. Well, yes. I was very guarded at first even then I didn't know who he was. I had no instructions who he was. but after I had a talk with him, I more or less read between the lines and thought he was somebody then whom I could ... well, I had to talk to somebody. I was in such a state that I couldn't carry on. Mean I was so ill and that. I just couldn't carry on that was all.
What about the possibility the Doctor said this to you as a bluff. Knowing whatever he thought' now, I must test this thing because after all it must be in their minds the whole time. Are these people under control. The fist time he meets you he says. '" I know the whole story. You are under British control.' to see what your reactions were. (AOB, The sound arguments, such as the availability: of a priority air line seat without official interference, is most unlikely; why couldn't they admit having made faulty judgements? Secret Services are mostly acting - as if they possessed the best wisdom in the world)
KV 2/450-1, page 63
KV 2/450-1, page 64
A. Apart from anything else (?) Well I thought perhaps that this man, Celery (Walter Dicketts) had blown the whole thing.
You must have reasons for that.
A. Yes, I can. In the first place before we went over to Lisbon he was certainly very much against Major Robertson (TAR) and he was certainly against people in the R.A.F. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Dicketts) the way he had been treated and he was leaning towards the Germans their organisation, what they had done and before he left he said to me, 'If there is any secret orders I get, I'll phone from Liverpool you from Liverpool and tell you I have had some.
Secret orders from Robertson (TAR). He made that arrangement with you before he left. That was then he anticipated leaving you before he left. That was when he anticipated leaving before you.
A. Yes. He did leave before me.
When you had arrived, your realized you had arrived before him I suppose, so that you were seeing the Doctor (Major Ritter, albeit no longer in charge, but wanted to meet for the last time, particularly likely also his oldest agent - Arthur Owens) the first and he hadn't had an opportunity.
A. That's right: (Several sentences inaudible) (Due to the fact that what we encounter here was reproduced from sound recording) A very funny incident in this respect. He (Celery / Walter Dicketts) told me that he had come ashore the night before and had come though the Police and had been at the hotel the night before to see me with the steward off the boat (which from England headed for Gibraltar first) There had been no indication whatever. The manager of the Hotel said he (Celery / Walter Dicketts) had never been to the hotel. In any case he could have left a note for me if he had been to the hotel.
You think that that might have been an attempt to make contact with the Doctor (Major Ritter) without your knowing it.
A. Mr. Doebler (Duarte) (file no longer existing) informed me when Celery was in the room that he had arrived the night before. He was in Lisbon the night before.
Of course, he might have heard that from his information services in the port without having been in touch. (AOB, how does he know this for certain?)
KV 2/450-1, page 65
A. That is quite possible. .... had come ashore through the police ...
Celery (Walter Dicketts) arrived at a time when according to your testimony the whole thing was kwon to the Doctor (Major Ritter). He must have therefore found some means of communicating with the Doctor (Major Ritter) if he is the responsible party. Can you make any any suggestion on that. How could he have communicated with them?
A. I don't think he could have used the radio on the boat.
After it was known to you that the whole thing was blown was it strongly in your mind that Celery (Walter Dicketts) sentenced in - audible (faulty sound recording) Were you waiting to tax him with this.
A. No it wasn't in my mind then. It was future things that came up that I was wondering about Celery (Walter Dicketts) Certain things that came back to my mind regarding the pub here, the Otter (?)
Do you mean when you first met him (Walter Dicketts) (in England)?
A. About conversations at the pub.
Yes, now what sort of things?
A. He (Walter Dicketts) introduced me (Arthur Owens) to the man at the Otter (name of the pub) and he said this man knew all about. Before Celery (Walter Dicketts) went away. He said 'You are friend of Celery's (Walter Dicketts) aren't you,' and I said 'yes'. He said, 'He's coming up to have a talk with me here.' And he did and he spent an evening up here, Now what transpired I don't know.
But that doesn't connect it up with the Germans.
A. Not in the slightest. before that the rumour went all around Ottershaw that we were German spies. Some months before that.
Isn't that the natural assumption that any village. In a small village you are very awkwardly placed if you happen to be strangers in the neighbourhood and don't happen to → (page 66) → have an accountable sort of job of work.
KV 2/450-1, page 66
→ have an accountable sort of job of work. Rumour get busy.
A. That's quite true.
And that might have no connection with with anything that, might have said.
A. That's quite true.
These points that you are making about the rumour round the village. Did you tell anybody about that? Did you tell Robertson (TAR) about that?
A. Yes, Major Robertson (TAR) knew that.
What that some months before ...
A. Yes, he knew all about that.
You are sure of that?
A. Positive. because one of the code papers had been picked up and taken to the Police.
Did you tell Robertson (TAR) about your suspicions of Celery (Walter Dicketts) before you left. You say that before you left he had been very much against Robertson (TAR). Did you tell Robertson (TAR) about that.
Didn't you think it was rather important that he should know(?)
A. I hate to tell the Major (TAR).
Did you tell Major Robertson (TAR) that Celery (Walter Dicketts) was speaking against him?
A. I didn't like to do that.
But didn't you think it was rather important. You knew that Major Robertson was sending Celery (Walter Dicketts) over to Portugal.
A. But Major Robertson knew more about him than I did.
KV 2/450-1, page 67
Yes, but he wouldn't know that he was speaking a bout him behind his back.
A. Well, of course I didn't like to tell him.
Even on an important thing with your safety and the safety of the country at stake?
A. Well, I didn't think for one minute, I never expected and I am not sure know the man (Celery / Walter Dicketts) double-crossed.
And also you said that before you left you thought the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew about it. (R 162) (R162return) (According the latter reference, the seat had been claimed under priority for the 31rd of January 1941. This must should have been noticed before, and 12 days, after all, is a not unlikely estimation)
A. No, no, I think the Doctor (Major Ritter) probably knew 12 days.
Now what reasons have you for thinking just 12 days. By the way he spoke? Did he mention the period of 12 days?
A. A recent revelation, yes.
That was just an impression, you can't even tell me that which lead you to believe that.
Just a recent revelation in his mind.
A. Just an idea I had in mind that he had the idea in his mind that he had known for about 12 days.
Now you say looking back over Celery's (Walter Dicketts') behaviour you feel that it is possible but not certain that he has been a double-crosser.
AOB: Might have been the whole purpose of Arthur Owens' second interrogation to "white wash" the British Secret Services?
A. I can't tell you that. You see the situation is this → (page 67) → right from the time .. you look at it know, I will explain to you the situation.
KV 2/450-1, page 68
→ right from the time .. you look at it know, I will explain to you the situation. From the time that he came down here he started on this, how shall I put it now, of being dissatisfied ad of running down your people here on this respect that he had a rotten deal right from the beginning. He took out of a lot of papers that had been sent to him by Major Robertson. He (Major Ritter) said, 'I'm a smart fellow you know, I have got registered letters here from Major Robertson (TAR) with his signature. Have you seen Major Robertson (TAR).
Have you seen Major Robertson's signature?
A. Well I (Arthur Owens) I said, 'I don't think I have',"and I don't think I have seen it. Well. he said I have got this signature in black and white. These are letters sent to me (Major Ritter) by Major Robertson. This is the way I have been treated by him. I have been offered several good jobs and he kept me off these jobs because he said I have got work for you to do. To show that I am not cheating you and to show you the dirty deal that he has treated me this is the money that he has sent me over all this period.' This was shown to me in front of Lily (Bade) (AOB, joined Lily Bade Arthur Owens in Lisbon?) And he said 'How can I and my wife live on this. This is the rotten deal that he has given me. £1,30/-, £2.' He said, I haven't had enough to exist on even expecting me to go out and pinch money to try and get me.
These are facts which are in fact know to me (Mr. D.G. White of M.I.5) that he did say this to you (AOB, being once reported upon after Owens' arrival from Lisbon last). You have reported this before. Let's go back to the more recent time, the time in Lisbon (all happened during his last stay in Lisbon!) which is the one which will concern us this morning. What about this visit of his (Celery / Walter Dicketts) to Germany. In the light of your suspicions, how do you regard that. After all you told him that things were blown.
A. I did.
You are quite clear about that.
A. Absolutely Gospel.
And he (Celery / Walter Diecketts) then went through with it, he went to Germany.
A. Oh! Absolutely.
And that in the light of your knowledge that he (Major Ritter) knew it was → (page 69) → blown you thought. 'How can this man trust himself to the Germans knowing what they do.'
KV 2/450-1, page 69
→ blown you thought. 'How can this man trust himself to the Germans knowing what they do.' (M205) ↓↓↓↓ (M205return)
A. He went quite casually. I shook hands with him on the side walk and he kissed this girl (AOB: were both Owens and Dicketts wife and girlfriend joining or concerned it temporarily girlfriends?) and I walked across to him, shook hands, I said, 'Are you satisfied?' He said absolutely. I said, 'Well, you are a brave man.' Those are the very words I said to him. I said, 'I'm all right.'
He couldn't have understood anything you said to him, this mention of the Doctor knowing everything? (AOB, nonsense: for Dicketts after all, all went perfectly sound!)
A. How could he have said things he said. There's no question about it.
Well what sort of things that made it quite clear to you that he realized the seriousness of the position.
A. Well, when he brought the letters from the bank. When the Doctor (Major Ritter) said (name not given) was working with the British Intelligence now. When he (?) gave these letters to the Doctor (Major Ritter). He went to the bank and he got these letters that had been sent from the (word(s) made invisible) I think it was and walked out of a letter to me and I was sitting in the taxi ... because I couldn't see it was something wrong somewhere, I don't know what it was. He (??) (Doebler??) walked out and then gave me in the taxi he gave me the envelope and said, I am not double-crossing you or the Doctor (Major Ritter), here's the letter, you open it.' I opened it. There were two envelopes in addressed to some banks. He (?) said, 'All right, I'll take them to the Doctor.' I said 'you please yourself what you want to do with them,' So he gave them to the Doctor and the Doctor said, 'I want to take them away and photograph them and I'll give them back to you.' Which he did. Here is something I forgot to put in .. When he (Celery / Walter Dicketts) came back from Germany, one of the Banks here which is not an English bank. The first thing he (Celery/Walter Dicketts) had to do when he came back (from his Germany trip) was to go the bank with me; and I (Arthur Owens) went to the bank with him (Walter Dicketts) because the Germans were very very interested to find out all about this bank. I didn't enter into the conversation, I wasn't interested and what he (Walter Dicketts) did there I don't know.
KV 2/450-1, page 70
You reported to him the exact words which the Doctor (Major Ritter) opened up this matter with you. The fact that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew you and presumably Celery (Walter Dicketts) also were under British control.
Did he know also that we were controlling the whole of that wireless business.
you are certain of that.
Well. now I think we have come to the point where we must ask him (Walter Dicketts) to tell his side of this thing and you do realise how it puts us into this desperately difficult position you say one thing and he says another, and he says another.
All right, then I think we'll have him (Walter Dicketts) in.
KV 2/450-1, page 73 (minute 1110a)
Interrogation by Mr. White. Part III.
I want to make this quite clear. too us the essential point ... you will both appreciate and I (Mr. D.G. White) am sure you are both aware of the seriousness of the position. Therefore I want to hear first of all from you Snow (Arthur Owens) what you have just told me (Part I) exactly the nature of our warning warning to Celery (= Walter Dicketts) in Lisbon.
S. Yes, Mr. Celery (Walter Dicketts) knew exactly that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew I was in touch with the British Intelligence before he left for Germany. That is right isn't it?
C. I had gathered as much but I didn't know.
S. You didn't know?
C. You never told me anything about it. You never mention it to me.
S. You didn't know?
C. I had very grave (serious) suspicion but I know.
S. You now tell me that you didn't know/
C. I'm telling you. I have been told after working out my whole report that you informed me that you had blown the whole project to the Doctor (Major Ritter, actually here occasionally, but de facto no longer in charge) And had warned me accordingly. I never made any such statement. When did you break it to me.
S. I believe I warned you when I saw you in the room.
C. You believe you did. I don't want to know what your believes are, I want to know exactly.
S. Do you remember me telling you in front of the Doctor. I remember this definitely, telling you in front of the Doctor that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew everything about me in connection with the British Secret Service. don't you remember you sitting there, the doctor sitting there, me (Arthur Owens) sitting on the bed with Doebler (Duarte), and I said to you, 'The doctor (Major Ritter) knows everything, you understand.' I definitely did.
KV 2/450-1, page 74
C. I say that you didn't, I am also informed that you warned me personally that you had blown (Owens admitted on a request on behalf of Major Ritter that he was controlled by the British Secret Service) the entire party to the Doctor (Major Ritter), that your own advice to me when you tried the last two or three days when I was with you to assure me that you were the only would see me back again as you had given your word of honour., and you waved on the pavement when I was getting into the taxi to go to Estoril station 'You are a very brave man, Celery, don't go if you don't want to.'
S. To go to Estoril?
Maybe a sentence have been made invisible.
C. To the best of my recollection you told me that I was very lucky because you thought the Doctor had left but you discovered that he hadn't but that he wasn't leaving till the Sunday morning. This was the Saturday.
S. Don't you remember a telephone call coming to my room from Doebler after we went to my room.
C. You telephoned.
S. I did not.
C. You made a call yourself, There may have been a call that came to you but you phoned yourself.
S. Not to Doebler (Duarte).
C. Well I don't know who you phoned to.
S. Don't you remember me phoning down to your request to the bar for two gin fizzes because you said you felt so rotten. After that call came from Doebler (Duarte). Can't you get that clear.
C. We went down to the bar and sat in the bar ourselves.
KV 2/450-1, page 75
S. I couldn't phone Doebler (Duarte) because I didn't have his number. It isn't possible.
C. You had his number on a little paper in your pocket.
S. No then. I didn't have it then.
C. I am sorry I disagree with the story completely.
S. I didn't have his number then.
C. We went down to the bar after we had made the appointment.
S. Half a minute. You said to me in the office let's go and have a drink. I said, 'don't have a drink down here, come up to my room.' We went up to the room, I phoned down to the bar.
C. No. (Whom is playing which game?)
S. I phoned down the bar and got them to send it up.
C. No. You had some sherry in your room. You said, I have only beer here' There was a bottle which you gave it to me. I said, 'I don't' want any beer.
Mr. Masterman : Understand the importance of the point though, the point as to whether Snow (Arthur Owens) did or did not make the call.
C. We are going to argue it.
What was the conversation you heard.
C. Just a 'yes' and 'no' and 'the usual place' and I think it was, if I'm right, 's quarter past one'
KV 2/450-1, page 76
but it was presumed by both of you that you were going to see the Doctor (Major Ritter) so that whether he called the Doctor or the Doctor called him isn't it very important point.
C. One was a call from somebody else and one was a call from the Doctor that I can't tell you because I don't know. The appointment was made for a quarter past one under the arches. We went down to the arches together.
S. Yes we went out together.
During this period you had no opportunity of discussing intimately the story you had from the Doctor (Major Ritter).
S. That I can't tell. I am not quite clear about that.
Are you clear about it. No mention was made.
C. No. Because I asked in the room. I said I think I ought to know something you know Snow (Arthur Owens) because you told me you would tell me certain things when I arrived here. And he said to me, "I want talk here because there was a man in the next room who you didn't trust.' I remember that man turned out to be name made invisible. The man left shortly afterwards with a pronounced Jewish face with spectacles who you didn't like. I don't even know what his name was. You remember the man. He used to come and sit on a stool the first few days and spoke with a very exaggerated voice. You said you thought he was something to do with the Foreign Office. He had very facetious (silly) voice and pronounced Jewish nose. You must remember him because you disliked him so much. He had the room next to you. That's why you wouldn't talk in the room.
S. I remember the man you speak of but I don't remember that.
C. You told me on two or three occasions the first day or two that he was the man next door and that we shouldn't talk there.
About how much time passed between your first meeting together and your first visit to the Doctor (Major Ritter).
KV 2/450-1, page 77
C. I should say about fifty minutes. I got to the hotel just after 12. That time you could check me because I was at the King (?) on the way out. I got there just as the (?) was closing just to enquire if there were any messages or letters for me.
About fifty minutes during which you had several drinks.
C. We went up to the room, first of all to my (Walter Dicketts') room then I went out into his room. We talked here for a minute or two then went down to the bar and sat there then we walked over to the arches. You agree to this?
S. I don't care. Well I don't know how long we were there at all.
C. You agree that your appointment was for quarter past one at the arches?
S. I don't remember that. I rather think it was later than that. I tell you why. Because if you remember I had my lunch.
C. You had your lunch. You had something to eat you told me.
S. I rest of the sentence made invisible.
C. You asked me if I wanted anything to eat and I said that I wasn't hungry.
S. I had my lunch and I never used to go into lunch not when I was by myself till half past 12.
C. You said something, I forget what you said you had had (several words inaudible)
S. I went to the dining room then and I had lunch then.
C. Well you must have gone in at about 12 because I came straight up from the King's after spending about 10 minutes or → (page 78)
KV 2/450-1, page 78
→ quarter of an hour I came straight up to the hotel.
S. I thought you we came out at 2 or half past.
Anyway it was reasonably short period according to both your stories. So far as you knew Snow (Arthur Owens), before - by the by (way?) did you notify Snow (Arthur Owens) by telephone that you were on your way.
C. I didn't know his address. I was told before leaving England by you we should not be staying at the same address.
You simply checked into this hotel.
C. When I arrived here the previous night when the Chief Steward smuggled me ashore because I was so anxious to find something waiting for me thinking probably that you would have gone back by that time. I went to the hotel I didn't ask you for I had no idea you were staying there. Didn't occur to me to ask for him because I was informed definitely that he wouldn't be staying. We were not to stay at the same hotel, we knew that before we left England.
S. Yes, I was supposed to stay there.
C. At the Estoril?
S. Yes definitely.
C. Well, the three addresses which were given to me you were to stay at the Palace or some other hotel.
S. No, Robbie told me I was supposed to stay there.
C. Well, he didn't tell me before .. that it had been arranged.
S. In any case it was a chance encounter.
C. Purely a chance encounter, I was filling in my form and Snow (turned up?)
S. I came out of the dining room and I saw Celery at the →(page 79) →I came out of the dining room and I saw Celery at the
KV 2/450-1, page 79
→ I came out of the dining room and I saw Celery at the counter.
Yes, and that was the first you knew that he was in Lisbon.
S. Yes, that was the first I knew.
Tough the fact was known to Doebler (Duarte)
S. He knew the night before.
C. But he did not inform you?
S. No, the first thing I knew ...
Do you remember what he said on the telephone conversation?
S. He said to me, 'Do you know C. (Walter Dicketts) is in town?'
S. He said to men 'Do you know C. (AOB, never C because this was his M.I.5. cover name. Whether Walter Dicketts was used I cannot judge) is in town?' and I said, 'Yes he is just here, I have just met him.' Well he said, 'So the Doctor in town. I shall want to see you right away. The Doctor (Major Ritter) has waited over to see him. I said, 'Oh, that is lovely.' I said, 'When do you want to see us?' He said 'right away,' I said, 'O.K.'
Mr D.G. White: And you then arranged to go to the arches and that 's agreed. The only point of dispute is to as to whether Snow (Arthur Owens; whose German cover name was Johnny) made the telephone call or Doebler (Duarte) called him which isn't a very important point. Doebler knew that Celery (Walter Dicketts) was in town there is just as much chance that he called him. You then went round to the arches and you were picket up by Doebler and taken by Doebler and taken to Doebler's flat where the Doctor (Major Ritter) was waiting. What were the Doctor's (Major Ritter's) first words to you.
C. He spoke to Snow (Arthur Owens) who said, I think he said, 'He's turned up at last, we'ld all give him up. I (Walter Dicketts) and the Doctor (Major Ritter) said, Johnny (I suppose) has been terribly worried about you (Walter Dicketts) we are very glad to see you.' Is that right?
S. That's right.
Now when was was this statement that you made to Celery (Walter Dicketts) to the effect that the Doctor knew everything.
S. Right then.
KV 2/450-1, page 80
C. No statement of any kind was made. If you made a statement of that kind the only thing I have to say is that you made it as an aside or a statement that I didn't hear. As far as I was concerned I knew nothing about it. If I had known anything about it I should never have gone into Germany.
S. Well, I said it all right.
C. And I'm quite convinced also that you were sure in your own mind that I didn't know the facts of the case because you refused to tell them to me and on the last night when I left you very nearly persuaded me not to go. You were very worried and you shook my hands half a dozen times and you told me what you thought of me, that you would look after me, you were wavering whether to tell me not to go or not in my opinion.
S. No I wasn't. I said you were a very brave man.
C. Well in the case you were sending me to my death because you could have done nothing about it.
S. No, I wasn't.
C. That is my candid (frank) opinion. If I had know that the whole of this was blown to the Doctor (Major Ritter) I should not have left.
S. Walter Dicketts (when he would have know his real name) you knew perfectly.
C. I knew nothing at the time. I knew you had relations with the Doctor (Major Ritter) and he knew a great deal about you (Johnny was one of his oldest agents) but I had no conceptional knowledge that he knew all about you that you were controlled or anything like that at all. I I had done I should not have gone.
Did you discuss it in detail with him Snow (Arthur Owens) Did you say they know all about the wireless transmission.
S. Yes, certainly.
You discussed that with Celery (Walter Dicketts)?
KV 2/81, page 81
C. You didn't mention such a thing.
S. Tell me Celery (Walter Dicketts) what did the Doctor (Major Ritter) tell you about word made invisible. Didn't he tell you that Johnny (Arthur Owens)? also belonged to the British Secret Service?
C. He told me that ? (Johnny = Arthur Owens) belonged to the British Secret Service at the second meeting that we had.
S. And didn't he take the letters from the bank? to be photographed?
C. He took one letter from the bank on your recommendation.
S. On my recommendation?
C. Well, what you say - show the Doctor (Major Ritter) all you have in your pockets approximately all there is.
S. I said that? I did nothing of the kind.
C. Show the Doctor (Major Ritter) that document you brought with you about yourself.
S. But you didn't bring it with you. You gave them them to me in the taxi.
C. I mean the other thing (?)
S. You didn't bring them with you. They were sent to you in Lisbon. (via the Office inside the embassy?)
C. No, I mean the other document I had in my pocket.
S. What other document?
C. About my staff appointment.
S. I didn't know you had it with you.
C. But you agreed with me in front of Robbie (?) before he left that I should take it.
KV 2/450-1, page 82
S. Oh, the paper you mean?
S. That's perfectly in order. That was arranged before we left here.
C. Of course it was arranged. It was arranged that I should show everything necessary to gain confidence.
S. Now look, tell me this, you remember you went into to word made invisible office and you got a letter there sent to Lisbon. I was sitting in the taxi in the road, you came out. I wouldn't come with you. You come out and you gave me this letter and you said, 'Now I'll give you this letter to show that I am not double-crossing you or the Doctor (Major Ritter). Now I'll let you open the letter.' I (Arthur Owens) opened it. In that letter were were two other letters addressed to two banks. I opened the letter and said 'what are these?' and you said 'These are from my business censors.
C. I destroyed them because Robbie said 'Don't use them.'
S. You gave those letters to the Doctor (Major Ritter).
C. No, I didn't.
S. Well, dammit he took them and photographed them.
C. When, then?
S. When you gave them to him (Major Ritter) in that flat.
C. Where upon? he, leaving for Berlin the next morning and spending the entire evening with us in Estoril took those letters and photographed them somewhere and gave me back to me. (Therefore you have your personnel)
S. He took one or two letters and photographed them and wait a minute, when you came back from Berlin, didn't we go to the bank because you said they were very interested to find out about this bank.
KV 2/450-2, page 1
C. Definitely. You concurred with me. You thought it was the best thing we could do.
S. Didn't you ask me to come with you.
C. Naturally. I asked you on both occasions to come with me.
S. Didn't I get as mad as hell and said, 'Let's get out of here quick, I don't want to be mixed up in this mess.'
C. Only because the man was rude to you on the bank.
S. He wasn't rude to me. I wasn't interested, it was you that ...
C. He was very rude to you, because you asked the man who was rude to take you to the Director.
S. You asked him. You were doing all the business.
C. You lost your temper with him (the man on the counter of the bank) because we had to wait and he said he didn't like (?) being fused about and messed about.
S. He didn't say it to me.
C. Oh! but he did.
S. He said it to you.
C. He spoke to you. I gave him the letter.
S. All right. Put it this way. Why did the Doctor (Major Ritter) ask you to go and find out all that about the bank.
AOB: the foregoing events apparently once took place at a bank in Lisbon, Portugal.
C. In any case we wanted to find out ourselves because we thought there might be something there for us. The reason for us going there was to find out what was for us. It was never mentioned to Doebler (Duarte) or anybody else afterwards.
S. Well, why do you say that the Doctor (Major Ritter) asked you to find out about it?
KV 2/450-2, page 2
C. Well, because anything the Doctor (Major Ritter) asked me to find out or do I agree to do. I was not going to refuse and put my head in a trap there though I never intended to do it and never mentioned it to Doebler (Duarte) or anybody else afterwards.
S. The point is this I don't think it was ever mentioned to Doebler about this.
C. I had to do it and wanted to see if there were any instructions for us. You (Arthur Owens) had full knowledge of this because you had my business letter and you had seen (the censorship made name invisible) letters. They were not to be kept apart from you. My instruction (by M.I.5) was that that I should work with you and gave you the letter.
S. But I don't think there were any instructions that those letters were to be shown to the Doctor (Major Ritter) (who else?).
C. One letter was shown to the Doctor on your instruction it was the ...
S. On my instructions? Not at all. I knew about the letters.
C. You just said a moment ago that I showed them to you.
S. Just a minute. I knew nothing about the letters being sent to you. Those were sent privately.
C. No. (?) (AOB, these might have went via channels of the Embassy, or an attached Service; maybe by means of 'diplomatic bag')
S. But they were sent to you privately. As far as I was concerned I knew nothing about them.
C. ... my instructions to you was to give you confidence.
S. You gave them to me and said to me, 'You need nothing from the Doctor (Major Ritter) ..'
C. But I didn't.
S. 'To show you I am not double-crossing you or the Doctor (Major Ritter), I'll give them to you.'
C. Now, wait a minute, one. We went along and saw Mr. → (page 3) → name made invisible yourselves
KV 2/450-2, page 3
→ name made invisible yourselves with the other one (?) and we showed the ordinary normal letter .. with introduction only to the Doctor (Major Ritter) and he did not take it, and photographed it.
S. Well, he took the other one and photographed it.
C. No, he did not.
S. He did take one or two.
C. He did not.
Mr. White How did you explain it?
C. Snow (Arthur Owens) asked me to show business credentials to the Doctor (Major Ritter) and also my own credentials.
It was the point the Doctor (Major Ritter) asked you about.
C. Yes, and asked me again and again if you (Arthur Owens?) have my interrogation (what?). My instructions (on behalf of M.I.5) in this line was to do anything within reason without giving anything serious away to gain his (Major Ritter's) confidence. And so I did so. He read the letter and he said 'Very interesting.' he read the cutting from the "Times" he also said, 'Very interesting' and handed it to Doebler (Duarte) afterwards and Doebler read it and then gave it back to me. He did not take it and photographed it.
Now I'm going to ask a few questions of each of you. When did you tell Dicketts that you had received £10,000?
S. The first day I met him.
You (Arthur Owens) mean in this first meeting at the hotel (in Estoril?). Do you agree with that.
S. I showed him the money.
When do you think he told you (Walter Dicketts)?
C. He told me he had £5,000 then.
KV 2/450-2, page 4
S. I said I had 50,000.
S. No, I said that I had American money and here I'ld got 50,000. That's 50,000 dollars and ...
C. Well, it was nearly all in English money. You had a small bundle of dollars and ...
S. Large sum of money anyway.
C. £5,000. The others £5,000 comes at a different date.
(Mr. White) When you (Arthur Owens) told Walter Dicketts that you had received this £5,000?
S. I didn't tell him how much I had. I said 50,000.
S. I said, 'Look here, look at these people. Look at the way they give money away. They don't quibble about money.'
C. 'Look what they think of me,' you said.
S. I said, 'Now look at the way they treat people. This is what they do. They don't even think about expenses at all'. (AOB, remember: actually Major Ritter was already no longer employed by Ast Hamburg, but he was committed within Rommel's DAK)
(Mr. White) But this is people who are giving you money at the same time that they know that you are under the control of the British. How did you explain that? It seems curious on the face of the moment they know you are under British control they give you give you this large sum of money as a reward. (please notice: the latter V169 and 169return)
S. I see your point. The point is though, I don't exactly know know what I said but I showed him the money anyhow → (page 5) →and what I said about it I just don't remember now.
KV 2/450-2, page 5
→ and what I said about it I just don't remember now. Whether I made any explanation or not I can't
W. Do you remember?
C. You made no explanations at all. He (Arthur Owens) he simply said, 'Look what they think of me and how they feed me', and he had it under a bundle of dirty washing locked first of all in the wardrobe which I though was very unwise.
S. No, I didn't.
C. Oh, yes you did. Later you put it in a suitcase. First you had it pushed under a dirty shirt. You said it was the best place to keep it.
S. No, I had it in my case first and I had it in the wardrobe afterwards. It was in my case first. I remember that definitely.
C. ... you lifted the shirt up, I can see you doing it now.
S. in my case.
C. In your wardrobe. I said you ought to put it in the safe and you said the safe is too small.
M. Well, look, where it was and how much it was isn't really material because it was such a large sum of money.
C. Well there is another question coming on that. May I put it now?
M. There is one I must put to Snow (Arthur Owens) first. I must be absolutely clear on this. You must have thought it strange or C (Walter Dicketts) must have thought it strange that the moment you declare that the whole thing is known that you are under control of the British you received this large sum of money. Did you say why he (the Doctor = Major Ritter) was giving you this large sun of money.
S. At that time?
KV 2/450-2, page 6
S. No, because, I'll tell you why. I've got this clear now. I showed you the money just before we went out of the room. Was that right?
S. I didn't have have time to explain.
W. You wouldn't have time to explain.
S. I didn't have time to explain.
C. You would have had time if you wanted to.
S. How could I. We were in a hurry to get out.
C. No, because we went down to the bar and stayed there an hour first.
S. No, we did not. We went right out. We were in a hurry because I told Doebler (Duarte) on the phone, I'm coming right away. Didn't I know?
C. I didn't know what you said at all. The appointment was for a quarter past one under the arches and I didn't know where it was.
S. I didn't say quarter past one, Celery (Walter Dicketts) I said I'll come right away.
C. We didn't go down to the bar and have a drink then?
S. Not then we didn't.
C. And see the Swiss and have a word with him.
S. Not then we didn't. We had two gin fizzes in our room. We went right away.
C. We didn't have any gin fizzes in your room.
W. Wait a minute please both of you. The points of disagreement here are largely minor ones. May I ask you just on question → (page 7)
KV 2/450-2, page 7
→ which is personal. May you not have been under the influence of drink at that time and not recollect these minor points.
S. No definitely not.
W. So that the points of disagreement so far on your first meeting at the hotel Metropole. (a) You are not absolutely certain that you told C. (Walter Dicketts) on the occasion. One thing is certain and agreed by both of you, you did say, 'Look what they've given me', and you showed a large sum of money. The point of disagreement is .. there are two points one that Doebler rang you. Celery (Walter Dicketts) says the reverse was the case, (that's a small point). The other is that a car arrived to take you to the arches. Celery (Walter Dicketts) says that before you went into the car you went down to the bar you had about half an hour there during which it would have been possible to discuss the meaning of the large sum of money, whereas you say you went straight to the car.
C. ... check on the other side because we saw this Swiss in the bar and Arthur (Very significant passage, as this might indicate that Arthur Owens real name was maintained between them; and not some cover-name) told me not to talk. The Swiss was going to Algeria. Remember the man I mean. We went and sat in the corner of the bar and had a couple of drinks.
S. No, not then we didn't.
C. It was the first time I had been in the bar. It was the first thing we did was to go down and have a drink.
S. No, no we rushed out.
C. Well the second £5,000 which I was told about was on my return, when Arthur told me me that they had given him £5,000 as a personal present to himself apart from the money.
S. I told you that the first time I met you (in Lisbon?). (AOB, would this imply that they haven't met before in England, first?)
C. You never mentioned the thing.
S. By God, I'm certain of that.
C. It was when I came back again (from Walter's trip, lasting three weeks in Germany) that you mentioned the second £5,000. (AOB, I tend to get the impression: - that Walter Dicketts isn't straight in his answers)
KV 2/450-2, page 8
S. I'm not selling - to Christ you're a liar - to cover yourself as much as .. (do?).
C. I've nothing to cover myself at all.
S. You are a bloody liar.
C. Why do you bluff?
S. I'm not bluffing. You know bloody well I'm not bluffing.
C. I know perfectly well that you are bluffing.
S. You know I am not.
C. Or else giving you the benefit of your mentality, your memory is very short. (AOB, the period dealt with took place a few months previously)
S. So you think I am crazy like you tell me these people think I'm mental?
C. You said to me that you were very simple ?
W. Have you some questions to ask?
(P210) ↓↓ (P210return) (M243) (M243return)
C.? ... except as far as the memory is concerned. I'll start a way with my first conversation with you (Arthur Owens) after we had left the Doctor (Major Ritter) and had some little time to ourselves and before we went to Estoril, by which time Snow (Arthur Owens) had had a very great deal of liquor. I've told you before the reason for his alcoholic state (in London in the context of M.I.5?) and I am quite convinced it was his relief in seeing me and I believe that now. That's my personal and quite candid (frank) opinion. I had a talk with him then and he started to talk about word made invisible my wife (AOB: implying most likely Arthur's first wife Jessie, whom hatred Arthur as he got, a new quite younger, girlfriend Lily Bade), and he said that she whilst he was there her bedroom door at night (think of before the beginning of 1939). ... Well, she (Owens' first wife Jessie) Well, she (Owens' former wife) (here must have been a gap as the context changed) tells me that that is utterly untrue and that she had no fear of Ronnie Reed (a cover-name of Arthur Owens?) whatever and the fact is that she had been very friendly with him (Arthur Owens?). Further than that he told me that he had done his very best to calm her fears (now dealing again with Owens' former wife Jessie?) and that sort of thing and she tells me the reverse and she (now Lily bade again?) is essentially truthful, that he said she could expect me (Walter Dicketts?) me to be → (page 9)→away for six month or longer and that I (Walter Dicketts) should be in a situation of great danger the whole time and worried the poor girl to distraction.(?)
KV 2/450-2, page 9
→ away for six month or longer and that I (Walter Dicketts) should be in a situation of great danger the whole time and worried the poor girl to distraction.(?) She (Lily Bade Owens' girlfriend) was worried to distraction. Well, Snow (Arthur Owens) told me the reverse he told me he tried to cheer her up and make her happy and that sort of thing. She says that she had several conversations with him (Arthur Owens) and he used to paint a very vivid picture of what I was going through and how he was only one who would look after me (Walter Dicketts).
S. Say that again Celery (Walter Dicketts) Let's get this straight.
C. You told me distinctly that Lily (Bade Owens' girlfriend) could look after herself and should look after my wife (Mrs. Dicketts) but that she (Lily Bade) was locking her bedroom door at night because she was afraid of Ronnie Reed (once one of Owens' cover-names?).
W. I must take you back to an opening sentence, with which you began. You said, 'No, Snow (Arthur Owens) did never tell me that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew everything and that he knew that you two were under control and the nature of the wireless transmissions but you said, 'I had a grave suspicion that that might be the case. 'Now you can you explain that now?
C. Because, I gathered from my conversations with T.A.R. (Major Robertson of M.I.5) before I left here who said he was almost certain in his opinion that they knew about Snow's (Arthur Owens') position with the other side. (AOB, still omitting that it was M.I.5's fault to obtain Owens' priority airline seat)
W. You had the gravest suspicion they knew. Did anything that transpired in Lisbon support or increase the apprehension (worry)?
C. Only Snow's (Arthur Owens') great friendliness with the Doctor (Major Ritter) these letters and show the Doctor (Major Ritter) that he was trying his best to do things but always with an under-current behind it which lead me (Walter Dicketts) to believe that there was much more in it than met the eye and which I questioned Snow (Arthur Owens) about on many occasions and begged him to tell me. His continual reply to my asking him to tell me more was 'No'.
W. You (Walter Dicketts) made two remarks on this subject, which I would very much like to explain. One was the very first → (page 10) →remark of all, before the one that has been quoted when Snow (Arthur Owens) said you had, he told you all about it, your exact words - I jotted them down at the time - were, "I had gathered as much before I went in, but you hadn't told me". Now, what do you mean "Before I went in", you didn't say, "Before I went to Portugal?"
KV 2/450-2, page 10
→remark of all, before the one that has been quoted when Snow (Arthur Owens) said you had, he told you all about it, your exact words - I jotted them down at the time - were, "I had gathered as much before I went in, but you hadn't told me". Now, what do you mean "Before I went in", you didn't say, "Before I went to Portugal?"
C. Well, I - it was before I went to Portugal. (?)
W. You took it down exactly, did you?
C. Yes, I did, but it actually should have been, "Before I went into the party ...
W. A little later on you said in reply to a similar .. by Snow (Arthur Owens) "If I had known I would never have gone into Germany". Well then, aren't those two statements of yours absolutely conflicting?
C. No, from this point of view - that I had gathered, before I went into the business, before I left this country, that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew something, but I had no conception the whole party were in it and that they knew everything about it, otherwise I should not have gone in.
W. There isn't much distinction between those two things.
C. Oh, I think so, I think so. Because it was an agreement between Snow (Arthur Owens) and myself that I should stick to the the truth as laid down between Snow (Arthur Owens), Robbie (isn't this another alias of his?) and myself (Walter Dicketts), but never mention the radio.
W. That's true?
S. As far as I can remember.
C. It's correct. You can check this on Robbie (??)
W. You were supposed to know nothing about the radio which was being worked by (at least M.I.5 control) -
C. Neither did I, you see, my presumption from that in reply to your question, my presumption was that the Doctor (Major Ritter) → (page 11) → certainly knew something about Snow's connection here, but he didn't know the major point, that the radio was controlled.
KV 2/450-2, page 11
→ certainly knew something about Snow's connection here, but he didn't know the major point, that the radio was controlled.
W. What did you suspect was the extent of the Doctor's knowledge? Can you be more precise.
C. Well, that Snow (Arthur Owens) was in touch with the British Secret Service here.
W. For what purpose?
C. That he was double-crossing us and acting for Germany pretending to act for us. That was the general idea of most of our discussions before I left. And that was the reason of my going there, to check it, to clear it up as to which side in fact Snow (Arthur Owens) was actually working for. But it was drummed into me (Walter Dicketts), which replies to both those questions really, that the one thing you must never mention, that I should stick to every other truth that I should to every other truth that I could to support the story, but never mention the radio. That is correct?
S. Yes, as far as I remember.
W. Did you ever tell Snow (Arthur Owens) that you were a hundred per cent for the Doctor?
C. Yes certainly.
W. When was that?
C. Well that was really my roll, all those remarks were my roll that I was to get as close in contact with the Doctor (Major Ritter) (AOB, who actually was no longer in charge, as he applied for a new commitment in Rommel's North African Campaign) until I was certain of Snow (Arthur Owens) which way he was working and I was to follow him wherever he went. (Had this been ordered before he left for Portugal by T.A. Robertson of M.I.5?)
W. And that you said that you were 100% for the Doctor in every way?
C. Yes in every way.
W. How did you understand that statement? Did you understand → (page 12) → he was a double-crosser?
KV 2/450-2, page 12
→ he was a double-crosser?
S. Yes I took it that way, naturally.
W. Had you the impression he took it that way?
W. what followed? what discussion followed?
C. I never had any discussion with Snow (Arthur Owens) about it at all, he always refused to give me any information. Always on the feel that I was an amateur again where he been in it for years, you see, and if I knew everything that was going on, it would upset me and the less I knew the better and I should not fell into traps.
W. Did you see that to him?
S. Yes I did.
W. But you still say that you told him quite clearly that the thing was known to the Doctor (Major Ritter) including ...
S. Yes, I told him.
W. Only on this occasion.
S. I distinctly remember telling Celery (Walter Dicketts) in front of the Doctor (Major Ritter) that the whole shooting match was known and to tell the Doctor what he (Walter Dicketts) knew.
C. Its perfectly clear, you remember saying it in front of the Doctor (Major Ritter).
S. In front of you - in front of the Doctor (Major Ritter) to you in that room.
C. You made no such remark, because it doesn't match up with the fact that we agreed, and we agreed with me (Dicketts) now that I was never in any circumstance to mention the radio but I could say anything else. You've agreed that. Those two statements ...
KV 2/450-2, page 13
S. Well, are you, you perfectly, let me see (say?) no, let me try and get it clear.
C. You remember that agreement Mr Owens don't you, you remember the reply to my question.
S? Yes, I do.
C. That we had agreed before I left that I should tell everything but not the radio, well then that doesn't bear out the statement that I knew the whole party was blown and the radio controlled ...
W. Now you were going to say something.
S. Yes, I'm just trying to think. Did the Doctor ever mention to Celery that he knew that I was in touch with the British Intelligence?
S. He didn't mention it?
C. No. →
KV 2/450-2, page 14
Record 11. (W173) ↓↓↓ (W173return)
W. IN what circumstances did you think you might have → (page 15) → met them and how did you explain?
KV 2/450-2, page 15
→ met them and how did you explain?
C. They asked me who had met who Johnny (Arthur Owens) knew. They queried me on that.
R or W? But you didn't tell them that I had met him? (AOB: 'I' might imply that T.A. Robertson had entered the current scene)
C. I said that I had met someone who might have be him (= T.A. Robertson)
R or W. But what difference does that make you to say that you had blown the (case or endeavour)
S. But God I had never said I had met him.
C. The exact reply you will see here in here, when I was queried about it. They must have known something about him (T.A. Robertson?) or, or they must have known something at some time.
W. Did they give him (T.A. Robertson) a name?
W. His right one (T.A. Robertson)
W. Who put the questions?
C. The Doctor (Major Ritter)
W. Can you remember exactly what he (the Doctor) said?
C. I think he said, Do you know any of the people who Johnny (Arthur) is in contact with, in England. First of all the people who are working for him. And I stuck again to the agreed story. That wasm that I had heard of a man called Biscuit (Sam McCarthy) and had seen GW (Gwilym Williams) for 10 minutes. That again was our agreed story. Correct?
W. You spoke of these persons as the people working for (Arthur Owens alias Johnny).
C. Then they asked ,e if I knew anyone in the British Secret Service. Did I know Major Robertson (Walter Dicketts is erratically repeating matters). I said I don't know (he told a different story previously → (W173) (W173return) Would I describe him. I said I had met some people with Snow (Arthur Owens) but not know their names. (Dicketts is apparently inconsistent and not entirely telling the truth)
W. How did you describe him?
KV 2/450-2, page 16
C. I described him as a man of 6ft 2 with fair hair.
Robertson? May I interrupt there. They asked you if you had met anybody from the secret Service. You said you had met some with Snow (Arthur Owens)
C. No. I didn't say exactly that. I said I had met some people with Snow (Arthur Owens). I didn't know who they were. (AOB, again he is lying; refer again to the foregoing (W 173)
R. or W. Why did you tell them though that you have met people with Snow (Arthur Owens) in that context you must thought the Secret Service?
C. I had to be very careful. I didn't know what they knew from Snow (Arthur Owens). I had to try and escape round the questions. (AOB, all took place before Walter Dicketts left for Germany on a tour lasting unexpectedly about 3 weeks)
R. or W. It seems to me by evading an answer like that you were (matters made invisible?) (AOB: typically thoughts by a "Civil Crown Servant" whom never have faced the enemy from nearby!)
C. Supposing I had said no completely, I hadn't proved (did he really?) by that time whether Snow (Arthur Owens) was for us, or whether he was double-crossing, I had no knowledge of what he had told them at all. I thought the best thing would be to hedge.
R. or W. Did they readily accept that some of the people that you met with Snow (Arthur Owens) might have been in the British Secret Service that you yourself recognised.
C. They simply asked me if I had met people. I said I don't know who they are exactly, but I had met some people. Those who I knew by name were Biscuit (Sam McCarthy) and GW (Welshman) (Gwilym Williams). They then asked me if I had met Major Robertson. Then they asked me if I had met people who were apparently in the Services, people who might look like him. Would I describe. Then I described everyone wrong. And I said Snow (Arthur Owens) knew better.
R. or W. You gave the impression that you might have met somebody in the Secret Service with Snow.
C. Well, nom you see it might to have been anybody from the British Secret Service; it was only that in my opinion that I had met someone with an army look. → (page 17) → If I would have said "No" at once and Snow (Arthur Owens) had been crossing me when I was there and had told them that I had met these people I was in a very bad spot.
KV 2/450-2, page 17
→ If I would have said "No" at once and Snow (Arthur Owens) had been crossing me when I was there and had told them that I had met these people I was in a very bad spot. As a matter of fact I was finished. My use to them was finished. So I thought the best thing to do was to hedge. You surely must realise my position. Surrounded by these people (German military Abwehr). It was no good denying the thing flatly when I was not certain whether he had said anything or not. I was still not certain.
R. or W. Even though your grave suspicions.
C. Yes, from the general conversations, you can gather a suspicion very easily from people's conversation. (← AOB = as might do the today readers about your inconsistent statements)
R. or W. Do you mean Snow's (Arthur Owens') conversation?
C. No, from general conversation there. You see the Doctor (Major Ritter) told me as you know that he was very fond (affectionate) of Snow (Arthur Owens) but that he didn't completely trust him. You read that in my report.
R. or W. And this would strike you as a very bad thing if the Germans knew that, the Doctor (Major Ritter), knew that in fact you were in touch with Major Robertson. (Bang!)
C. Yes, I knew that on the spot.
C. May I put a question there? Why should it worry you? The Doctor's first question to you was that ?
S. Did I know Roberts or Robbins.
C. No that you were in touch with The British Secret Service who had taken over your (radio) set.
S. Yes, and I said that I didn't know anybody. You admitted the control of the British Secret Service.
KV 2/450-2, page 18
S. I didn't know anybody at all.
R. or W. How did the Doctor know the name of Major Robertson?
S. I don't know. He asked me if I knew a Roberts or a Robbins. connected with the War Office. I said yes, I know plenty. As a matter of fact the night before I came over here (there), I said, I had dinner with one of the big shots connected with the War Office, Richardson. So I know plenty time there. He asked me for descriptions of these people and I gave to him (the Doctor = Major Ritter) - wrong.
S. There's a chance this way that he hasn't got the description of Major Robertson. Its all right.
R. or W. Though he knows that you're under control by the Secret Service does it matter whom particularly. Does the Doctor (Major Ritter) know that?
S. He hasn't got a description.
R. or W. Yes, but I can't see that it matters one way or theother who in the British Secret Service is controlling you but the fact you are controlled, is the vital thing,. Quite different. "Then youre really no worse off than you were before?
S. No I don't think I am. Except that I have lied, and I shouldn't.
S. (to Walter Dicketts) He told you that he wasn't 100% sure of me (Arthur Owens).
S. Well that won't improve it. And yet he gives me.
C. The question I want to ask is that knowing these people's ruthless methods of cross-examing, its incessant (never-ending) → (page 19) → If they knew, if Snow (Arthur Owens)
KV 2/450-2, page 19
→ If they knew, if Snow (Arthur Owens) said that the party was blown and he agreed to it, they must have asked him some question bearing on whom he had met and who was principally in it. They wouldn't just leave it at that if they knew Snow (Arthur Owens) was being controlled, they wouldn't just leave it blankly, its not their method. (X199) (X199return) They would ask him some very personal questions as to who was controlling it.
R. or W. Quite, quite, that's a matter we have to discuss further. How many money did the Germans give you?
C. 100 dollars to pay my expenses before I left Lisbon which Snow (Arthur Owens) made me change some of to pay my bill at the desk, because he said he had some special reason for doing so.
C. The balance of which I used on my journey, 100 dollars which I used for my journey back again and for the ??
S. I gave him 100 dollars.
C. Yes, the Doctor (Major Ritter) instructed you at the meeting at the meeting he said "Give Dick (derived from Dicketts or was Dick his cover-name?) 100 dollars".
R. or W. Did you try and borrow some money because you knew he was going to be given 2 thousand pounds? Did he ever tell you he had been given 200 pounds.
S. When you (Walter Dicketts) you returned (from his extensive tour to Germany) you said you had been given 200 pounds.
C. Oh nonsense (?)
S. Now Celery (Walter Dicketts) You told me you had been given 200 pounds. and you said to me "I want some money". And I gave you 1000 escuadores, in the Arcadia. Do you remember that ?
KV 2/450-2, page 20
C. I never mentioned such a thing in my life, I wanted some escuadroes yes. I was told to draw on you.
S. Listen. I walked over to George and said, "Why didn't you give C. some Escuadores. He said C. has plenty of money. He's got 450 pounds.
C. 400 pounds, yes that I had got for a motor boat (meant for Wales - Channel Islands communication), and 100 pounds for myself. And I was to draw upon you for other money.
S. You told me that you had 200 pounds, and that the Doctor (Major Ritter) you to buy the motor boat and draw upon me for the other money you requited.
C. For whatever other money was required. Particularly for my expenses in Lisbon. 400 pounds which I sealed up and brought back with me.
C. May I ask a question again bearing on it. How much did you think the motorboat? would cost, which we discussed.
S. I never saw your motorboat?
C. They (The Germans) gave me enough to by that (motorboat) (why doing so misty about it?), and I told you the reason why they had given it to me. That was the only thing important that I had, and that if we were in danger that you (Arthur Owens) and I (Walter Dicketts) and Lily (Bade, Arthur's girlfriend) and Mrs. (Dicketts) and the baby (Lily's) should go over there (Channel Islands). Is that right?
KV 2/450-2, page 21
R. or W. Well, now we have nearly finished as far as you're concerned this morning. Before you go I think it's only fair that you should hear the exact nature of the statement as we have taken it from Snow (Arthur Owens). On your return from Germany 'he told me a about the Doctor'. There is rather long passage which I shall read carefully, he said, 'The Doctor's best friend and the only one he has to look to is Goering', he said 'I did know that he would tell him that?'. I said, 'The only man he has to account to is Goering'. I said, I didn't know he was such a big nut'. Yes, he said, 'That's nice for me. The only man I'm responsible to is the Doctor. Anyhow I've got £ 5,000 out of them and an extra £ 5,000 for my loyalty. Actually it is more than that because I had very heavy expenses in Lisbon, approximately £10,000. C. (Walter Dicketts) is a most expensive man. He said, 'I had to go out and buy gold watches and bracelets for him for his wife and my wife'. Correct isn't it?
S. You said the Doctor's instructions.
* KV 2/528.
S. Who? Who's Sessler?
C. George Sinclair.
S. George ? Sinclair ? Is that his name?
C. Well you must know. You met him again and again You met him without me.
C. You met him continually without me and with Doebler .
S. Is that the man called George? His real name had been likely Georg or George; making matters easier.
page 22 and 23 have been actually interchanged.
KV 2/450-2, page 23
C. Of course it is.
S. Do you mean the fellow you introduced me to that you said you came from Germany with? (in accordance with Ritter's book ) Is that the man? Tell me now. Is that the fellow that you met in Germany (actually Hamburg) Sessler (real name) you call him?
S. He's got two names, has he?
C. It was on his passport and he called himself George Sinclair. Now you know who George is. Did George also tell you to buy a gold watch?
S. No, he never said a word to me.
C. George, in my presence, when we were discussing it said that that I was to have a nice souvenir because they couldn't buy any gold in Germany.
S. George never said a word to me at all. Not a word.
C. You said to me, 'All right, we'll go out when I have a little freedom.
S. (following a contra dictio) S. George said to me that you (Walter Dicketts) have plenty of money,
C. George knew exactly how much money I'd got so why should I attempt to lie to you about £2000, when obviously you were going out with George and George would have told you I'd got £400.
S. He told me you had £450.
C. He knew exactly how much money I'd got because he brought me the money himself with the Doctor (Major Ritter)
S. Well, anyhow, I did according to what you said the Doctor said.
KV 2/450-2, page 22 pages interchanged
extent a reassurance.
C. Yes, but I had heard from the Doctor (Major Ritter) that he wasn't completely trusted and I didn't consider that it was through his good offices (Please remember, Ritter was already for some time not in function of the Abwehr Hamburg at all; whereas he was committed to Rommel's North Africa Korps in particular in Laszlo Almásy's operations) that I (Walter Dicketts) had come back. I think that it was through my own sticking to the simple story refusing to tell anything else and convincing them after days of cross-examination that I knew nothing else that I got back.
R. or W. All right. That's all - -
C. I would like to ask another question about the last statement about my being a very expensive man. You have got a detailed statement of the monies that Snow gave me whilst I was there and a fairly detailed statement which I can improve on of what he spent elsewhere. I'ld like Snow (Arthur Owens) to tell me what amounts of money he gave. You can check those up with the money I've brought back and the money I spent over there.
S. I haven't any check of what he gave to me. I gave you quite a lot.
C. You bought me an overcoat and a hat, two sets of underclothes and two shirts, that right?
S. A case. 1,000 escudos, 500 escudos, a case. and 200 escudos.
C. 1,000 escudos, 500 escudos/a case. That's all you gave me.
S. 100 dollars.
C. That was on the Doctor's (Major Ritter's) instructions.
S. He gave me no instructions (?) which you didn't spend.
C. Which I didn't spend?
S. George (Sinclair alias of Georg Sessler) told me you didn't spend it. They paid all expenses.
C. That was on the outward (meant his journey to Berlin?) trip.
KV 2/450-2, page 24
S. They paid the hotel bills.
C. On the outward journey? Nothing of that kind.
That's what he (Lt.
George Sessler) told
Rosen Ruser (Dr.
Junior) spent it??
C. I came back again with 40 dollars in my pocket out of sixty that I had...
S. Anyhow it doesn't matter.
Several sentences inaudible.
R. or W. Can you possibly be mistaken on the fact that the Doctor (Major Ritter, was no longer in charge as his operational terrain was the North African theatre) knows everything?
S. I don't know what to think.
R. or W. Now, have you jumped to hasty conclusions about it, have you said to yourself, well, knowing that this was always in your mind that he might find out about your control by the British have you jumped the the conclusion that he has and the fact he hasn't?
S. Well, from what he said now, I don't think he knows such a lot about it. That's what it seems like to me.
R. or W. I think you've got to tell us this frankly, When a man comes back from a journey abroad and when in particular all these cross currents of suspicion and so on, I wouldn't hold it against him entirely if he's misconstructed the situation. He comes back and says everything is blown because that was always in his mind and it might be. No, Snow (Arthur Owens) you must tell us that, have you on that point lied.
R. or W. On the point that you told the Doctor (Major Ritter).
S. No, definitely not.
KV 2/450-2, page 25
R. or W. You'r absolutely certain that when he said to you on your first going into his room (since he had arrive in Lisbon), 'I know everything' that you immediately broke down and said, 'two and a half months ago they walked in on me.
S. I told him that. definitely I told him that.
R. or W. Well, then how does he interpret it. What further use does he see for you. Why does he give you £10,000? Maybe the statement Ritter worded in his 1972 book, which might have been a bit coloured; but the essence still might have been valid. (Y180) (Y180return)
S. This is the finest situation that we can be in, he said, 'this is Dandy (Great)'
R. or W. Why?
S. He said, 'You can come and see me any time now (bear in mind he wasn't committed to the Hamburg Abwehr anymore; albeit he might have considered his 'I L' successor). You can get stuff through, they won't bother you' Because he said to me, 'Now, there 'll be no trouble to get this stuff in'.
R. or W. You 'll be helped.
S. I said none at all.
R. or W. R = Then in addition to money they give these explosives, fine pieces of mechanism which you would have thought the Doctor (Major Ritter) (AOB, strange as Major Ritter was Referatsleiter of Abwehr I L (military espionage); and explosives was the terrain of the sabotage Referat II) would not like us to know about. How do you explain that?
S. 'Well' he said, 'You will be able to get all that stuff in now without any difficulty'.
R. or W. But if you get it and immediately hand it over to the British, what good is that? (AOB, one aspect not emphasised upon is, that Ownes - Johnny was already in contact with Abwehrstelle Hamburg since about 1936 and therefore had a longstanding trustworthy relation with them!) But don't you suppose that he would presume that when you come through that port that we should search you to find out what you'ld got.
S. But he thinks I should be able to get through without → (page 26) →any difficulty at all now. Take anything through, you see.
KV 2/450-2, page 26
→ any difficulty at all now. Take anything through, you see.
W. With all your explosives and everything?
S. Quite. Provided they're camouflaged all right.
W. And every time you go onto the air with a message you're instructed to warn them when its false, and when the new transmitter is here that has got the entirely secret. What makes you think that the Doctor (Major Ritter) doesn't think that we know ...
S. Because I have kept them entirely separate. Its an entirely separate organisation.
W. Did they say anything to lead you to that view.
S. No I've always told him I've kept them entirely separate.
W. Yes, but didn't he say anything to you on his visit which makes you think that he feels we don't know about ... Did he say anything extra or was it just ??
S. He asked me once. he said what about the sabotage men you've got in South Wales and that. Well I said, 'They are quite all right, they are perfectly safe.
W. You are sure he asked you that?
S. Yes definitely. Because in the first place he asked me about the man that had come down near Cambridge (Jacobs https://www.cdvandt.org/kv-2-24-27-jakobs.htm) and said, You needn't worry about that, I've found out him he came down with a broken ankle and had been firing shots and had been picked up. He (Arthur Owens) said how do you know that? Well, I (Major Ritter) said, 'I've sent two of my men up from South Wales' 'Oh' he said, 'Are they all right'. He said, 'You kept them separate and I said 'Yes'.
W. Did the Doctor (Major Ritter) ask you at all whether you were followed by the British Secret Service.
S. Yes. And said, I had been followed all the time but → (page 27) → now I said I'm not I'm perfectly all right.
KV 2/450-2, page 27
→ now I said I'm not I'm perfectly all right. I'm not followed at all', and C (Walter Dicketts) said he's quite all right he can go anywhere he likes.
W. Did the Doctor (Major Ritter) ask you whether your correspondence was censored?
S. He never asked me that.
W. But did he ask you whether the British Secret Service wasn't keeping a close enough eye on you to know that you were communicating with these men in South Wales?
S. I don't remember whether he asked me that or not. I don't know. I don't think he did. In any case I had a very good camouflage if he had asked me that and I don't think he did because I could have come back at once. If you remember in one of the papers that I brought back I had a letter from Lily that was sent to me in Lisbon that had been sent there and not opened by the censors. I don't know whether you noticed that.
R. or W. No, I (likely pointing at T.A. Robertson) didn't notice that.
S. Well that is true. It had never been opened by the censors.
R. or W. You're sure of that?
S. Yes, he saw that, and that convinced him.
R. or W. That you could correspond with your men in South Wales without the British Secret Service knowing despite the fact that they knew were, as you confessed, under their control.
S. As a matter of fact the letter came to me in Lisbon and hadn't been opened by the censor even.
R. or W. You're a shrewd (smart) person and a man of the world and I haven't had the advantage of your meeting the Doctor (Major Ritter) but is he a stupid man?
S. He's a very shrewd man.
KV 2/450-2, page 28
R. or W. He's a very shrewd man but that does seem to me ...
S. He's very dull (gloomy) on some points.
R. or W. He must think that we, the British Service is extremely stupid, mustn't he?
S. Yes, definitely.
R. or W. We doesn't think that. He is often said so I suppose. That in fact if we catch an agent with a wireless set that our system of interrogation and our legal methods are so bad that we can't extract from him his associates.
S. That's right.
R. or W. Did he ask you whether you had any address in your possession when you are searched?
R. or W. You said no.
S. He asked me what papers I had. I said the only papers I had was the code, some copies of some messages and the radio. Nothing else. I said, no names at all of anything.
R. or W. But with your capabilities like so many people you haven't got an awfully memory for names wouldn't the Doctor (Major Ritter) assume that you must have the names and addresses of these people written down somewhere or those names and addresses which are particularly difficult to remember.
S. No, because their being friends of mine you see. (D200) (D200return)
R. or W. I'm supposing that's the case now. The Doctor (Major Ritter) looks at it like this. He says 'You're under British control but that may well be an advantage, your subagents are intact, the British don't know about them, you can walk through the report control without any hindrance and you can take in therefore as much as you like a great deal more than you have ever taken in before and this is a definite key point and advantage from the point of view because unknown to the British Secret →(page 29)
KV 2/450-2, page 29
→ Service you can distribute these explosives to your men in South Wales'. What did they ask you about Celery (Walter Dicketts)? They understood he was associated.
S. They asked me about Brown (Celery was his British cover-name; real name Walter Dicketts), another thing they said to me about Brown was this. Did I trust him (Did he trust you? Walter did not!). You see they think that C's 100% definitely. They (The Germans) said what did I think about him. Well, I said to de perfectly candid (frank) if I said to them 100% they'ld think - well I don't know how they would take it. So I said. I think he's 99%' 'Well we'll soon find out'. When C. (Walter Dicketts, German cover-name Brown) came back (after three weeks) from Germany he said to me, 'The Doctor said you told him exactly what you told ma and what you told him that you had told him that he was 95% for the Doctor (Major Ritter) and the Doctor (Major Ritter) said he found out since I'd been there that I was the other 5% for the Doctor Considering what Ritter in post-war days wrote in his book  expresses a different picture). So that's O.K.' So evidently the Doctor (Major Ritter, actually not really in charge any longer) thinks C. (Brown; Walter Dicketts) is 100% for him. Whether he is actually I don't know but on the surface of it I think he is.
R. or W. I think all along the mistake you two have made is to have these suspicions of each other and to be too ready to cast these suspicions on each other.
S. Maybe so.
R. or W. part of sentence made invisible Now supposing part of sentence made invisible I think you've both done that / You (Arthur Owens) said to C. (Walter Dicketts) what you said in the presence of the Doctor (Major Ritter) that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knows everything, it is conceivable (plausible) that he might not have that he might not have understood by that what you knew to be the fact. Unless you can tell me that you went into a Great details I'm inclined to think that he may not have realised.
S. We didn't go into it in detail.
R. or W. You think he may not have realised.
S. It's quite possible he didn't. But on the other hand from what I told him (Major Ritter) he should have known. In any case he's (Walter Dicketts or Major Ritter?) too much of a novice to be in the deal (?) He's a shrewd fellow is C (Walter Dicketts) and if he can be trusted he could work this game O.K. I like the fellow (Walter Dicketts?) very much and if he can be trusted he can be a great help to this country. There's no question about it. I'ld like to work with C. (Walter Dicketts) very much → (page 30)
KV 2/450-2, page 30
→ (likely belonging to R. or W's comment) supposing we say, 'Well, this is a very complicated case but there may be still something to be made out of '. How does C (Mr. Brown alias of Walter Dicketts?)?
S. Well He's the man who who is going to go and get the transmitter.
R. or W. The second transmitter. That was agreed?
S. Definitely agreed.
R. or W. What would you (Arthur Owens) feel supposing we let him go? Would we see him back?
S. I'll, I think we would see him back as long as his wife's (Kaye Dickett [19,p xi)]) here.
R. or W. Might the Doctor have said to himself about (Johnny German alias of Arthur Owens): 'Well I know from Snow that the British walked in on him'. You didn't tell them that they walked in on Celery (Mr. Brown an alias of Walter Dicketts) did you'?
R. or W. 'I asked C (Walter Dicketts)'. So he takes C. into Germany in order to test him and he comes back. During that time in Germany he satisfies himself that he's all right. He sends you both back thinking there are still assets to be gaining from this point of view. Do you think that's possible, knowing the Doctor (Major Ritter) as you do, do you think he would do that?
R. or W. How are you going to warn them that the message is false?
S. I don't remember, but I've got it down. Well, in that message there will be a certain word such as 'have new dope on so and so or such and such which I hear is on the level about so and so. Somebody told me its absolutely jake (?) on the up and up and there's something which is right hot and its some lie'.
R. or W. Those things specified. Were you given the exact phrases?
KV 2/450-2, page 31
S. If words such as 'dope, on the level, up and up some line ' is in the message its fake.
R. or W. Any other ones which are American expression etc.?
S. No the words, 'dope, on the level, and up and up, some line' is in the message, its fake. That's on this transmitter now that's at Addlestone. The other transmitter will be perfectly O.K.
R. or W. Where were you set that up and how does he suppose that you can get free from this constant supervision under which you must be.
S. Well, because I'm perfectly free now.
R. or W. Does he think the ...
S. Otherwise I wouldn't have been allowed to go to Lisbon.
R. or W. Does he (Major Ritter) think that the British, I can't quite follow that. If you were allowed to go to Lisbon because you were free and the British taking no further interest in you, then how were you going to be able to bring the £10,000 back because you would just be an ordinary traveller. I thought you said that he thought you would be able to bring the £10,000 back because the British.
S. I'm perfectly free to go anywhere I like, do what I like because I'm working for the British Intelligence.
R. or W. If you are working for the British Intelligence does he think that we (M.I.5?) trust you absolutely?
S. Absolutely. Go anywhere I like, do what I like.
R. or W. Without any supervision at all?
S. Non at all.
R. or W. before we just wind this up this morning this question of you (Arthur Owens) and Celery (Walter Dicketts) You knew you say that he fact he (Walter Dicketts?) told you that he was sent to Lisbon to spy on you.
KV 2/450-2, page 32
S. He even told me that.
R. or W. That caused you much resentment that you said to yourself 'Be dammed to this man, I'm not going to let him into this vital secret'.
S. Not at all. I didn't worry me in the slightest. He (Walter Dicketts) told me when he left here to go (by ship) to Lisbon that he had instructions to meet Major Robinson (TAR), Wood Land Station. Major Robertson (M.I.5) had told him to take all the notes, watch me closely, see who I met, what I said and where I (Arthur Owens) went, take notes of all telephone conversations I made. Prior to that he had had to pick up another man at Addlestone, wouldn't it come up the house tp fear I got suspicious if I saw him and then he was driven to Liverpool. (AOB, the very T.A.. Robertson being among those interrogating Arthur Owens)
R. or W. Did the Doctor tell you not to tell (Brown the name the Germans gave Walter Dicketts)
S. Tell him what.
R. or W. Tell him what he said to you when you first met that you were under (British) control.
S. Not at all. He (Major Ritter; the Doctor) didn't. Not at all.
R. or W. Mustn't he have presumed that you would tell? You see he must have assumed that C (Walter Dicketts) was under control at once (too).
S. I told the Doctor that C. (Walter Dicketts known as Brown to Major Ritter) is also working (for) the same as I am.
R. or W. And the Doctor (Major Ritter) thinks he is playing C (Mr. Brown / Walter Dicketts) in exactly the same way as he is playing you. That is to say that although you are under control you are 100% with him (Major Ritter).
S. He understands that C. (Brown alias of Walter Dicketts) is also working the same as I am.
R. or W. As that was Celery's (Walter Dicketts') intensions you can't blame him in putting up that show. That is what he was there for and quite convinced the Doctor (Major Ritter) that he was 100%.
S. Well as far as I'm concerned. If C. (Walter Dicketts) is trustworthy then its quite O.K. with me. I'm tickled (delighted) to death.
KV 2/450-2, page 33
R. or W. Yes, but this question of your telling him - the thing is vital. Here is a man going into Germany.
S. Well, I mean the point is this. Its only natural if he didn't know of the situation before he went into Germany with my influence or not he'ld never have been out because the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew about it.
R. or W. Well, I'm not quite clear on that. If he himself didn't know - he claims he didn't know. He claims he didn't understand. (AOB, not proven but rather likely considering foregoing passages, we should not neglect the possibility: that Walter Dicketts' rapport also aimed to harm the case of Arthur Owens!)
S. Well he would never have come out.
R. or W. Why not? Because you (Arthur Owens) came back after all. He (Major Ritter) knows that you are under (British) control. His (Walter Dicketts?) position is no worse than yours is it.
S. But the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew about me though.
R. or W. But you said he also knew about Celery (Brown alias of Walter Dicketts).
S. Yes, but the point is this. If C. (Walter Dicketts) hadn't known he would have said something about me and C. (Walter Dicketts) would have sworn blind it was wrong. He would never have come out of Germany.
R. or W. Do be clear on this, is it possible that he didn't know.
S. Oh, he did know.
R. or W. And you felt it was safer he shouldn't know.
S. No, he did know definitely.
R. or W. You're convinced on that?
S. I'm convinced.
R. or W. That one statement in front of the Doctor (Major Ritter) isn't good enough. If you'd simply said in front of the Doctor (Major Ritter).
S. We had days of conversation about it in Lisbon. He (Major Ritter) shook hands with me over it in the hotel several times. I went → (page 34) →
KV 2/450-2, page 34
R. or W. Yes, but this question of you telling him - the thing is vital (one of reasons of what went wrong laid with the M.I.5 operational organisation; which circumstances M.I.5 refrained to acknowledge, because: they themselves are oh so good and doesn't make ill decisions like this) here is a man going into Germany (AOB, notice: this man returned safely to England again!). Here is a man going into Germany.
S. Well, I mean the point is this. Its only natural if he didn't know of the situation before he went into Germany with my influence or not he'ld never have been out because the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew about it.
R. or W. Well, I'm (Major Robertson?) not quite clear on that. If he himself didn't know - he claims he didn't know. He claims he didn't understand.
S. Well he would never have come out.
R. or W. Why not? Because you came back after all. He knows that you are under control. His (Walter Dicketts') position is no worse than yours is it? (All the matters brought forward on behalf of Mr. Robertson and Mr. White is finding the appropriate moment to tell, at least, that he will be put under the 18B detention Order again! All the foregoing was more or less a show; as what really was intended - was to put Arthur Owens in a Goal, as they expressed it. Justice? Not at all; it looks more an act of revenge)
S. But the the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew about about me though.
R. or W. But you said he also knew about Celery (Walter Dicketts).
S. Yes, but the point is this. If C. (Walter Dicketts) hadn't known he would have said something about me and C. (Walter Dicketts) would have sworn blind it was wrong. he would never have come out of Germany.
R. or W. Do be clear on this. Is it possible that he didn't know?
S. Oh, he did know.
R. or W. And you felt it safer he shouldn't know?
S. No, he did know definitely. (Arthur could tell them everything, their whole attitude (intention) was not to believe him, as he should go anyway into a detention goal!)
R. or W. You're convinced on that? (has he asked this before recently?)
S. I'm convinced.
R. or W. That one statement if front of the Doctor (Major Ritter) isn't good enough. If you'd simply said in front of the Doctor (Major Ritter).
S. We had days of conversation about it in Lisbon. He shook hands with me over it the hotel several times. I went → (page 34) → up to your man in the Embassy in Lisbon and told him what I had done. and he said, 'I think you have done the wisest thing'. And then when I heard about this mysterious wire I thought 'My God, I've certainly done a wise thing, now'.
R. or W. Is that anything you want to ask? (you enemy is talking!)
I (T.A. Robertson?) just wondering whether its possible to verify that fact over the radio from the Doctor, how could we do that.
R. or W. It seems to me more important to be clear before we go on to the radio. (AOB, please bear again in mind: that Major Ritter, wasn't engaged at Abwehr Hamburg any longer - but committed to special operation within Rommel's DAK)
S. You see there is another point to which I made quite clear with the Doctor about this new radio. We left it like this, it was left with me, my own judgement whether I sent or one of the men from South Wales for this radio. They were both to have the same instructions about it, Personally if made invisible? or one of the men from South Wales for his radio. They were to both have the same instructions about it. Personally if words made invisible is trustworthy I'ld sooner send name made invisible because because he knows name made invisible people but I'm a little disturbed. He never told me this man's name before.
R. or W. Sessler you mean?
S. Yes that (George) Sinclair (a cover-name) (KV 2/528)
R. or W. You simply knew him as George.
S. George - that's how I was introduced.
R. or W. Well, you can't help any more to clear up this fact?
S. I'm afraid I can't help.
R. or W. All right, then we won't ask any more questions.
S. Can I take this with me? I'll add some things that may help to clear the point. I would like to be sure of him (Walter Dicketts, I doubt that Lt. d. R. Georg/George Sessler being meant) because he can be a great help. There's no doubt about it.
Finish of the quite extensive interrogation report series.
(N209) ↓↓↓ (N209return) (R211) ↓↓↓↓ (R211return)
KV 2/450-2, page 35 (minute 1109a) Followed by Arthur Owens' report written after his return from his stay Lisbon and his return to England again.
I (Arthur Owens) left the Hotel at Bristol between 5 and 7 o'clock on the morning of the 14th (February), and arrived at Cintra Airport, Portugal, early that evening. I drove from Cintra to Lisbon, registered at the Metropole Hotel, went out and left a note at the Hotel Duas Nacoes (German controlled) (street name similar) and then returned to the Metroplole Hotel. I received a definite message later on asking me to wait at the entrance to the hotel at 9.15.
KV 2/450-2, page 36
→that I would do under any circumstances, if required, was to get in touch with the British Consul, nothing else. (AOB, maybe also as to safeguard Lily - his girlfriend with whom he lived together) Then the Doctor (Major Ritter) asked me about Celery (German cover-name Brown, British real name Walter Dicketts). I told him that I had requested Celery to work with me because I had known him approximately 12 months previously in Richmond (where Arthur lived), and told him that as far as I knew Celery (Walter Dicketts) had pro-Nazi views at that time and he told me all about his difficulty with the Air Force and all the rest of the trouble he had had had and I thought he would be a suitable man. Then things went on to general talk such as how Lily (Owens' girlfriend) was and the baby (Jean Louise), I showed him some photographs which I took over. The Doctor (Major Ritter) said to me "that is alright for now, I will have something figured out for our next meeting". That first meeting lasted 1½ - 2 hours or even a bit longer. I was then driven back to the back of the hotel opposite the Café Lisbon and told to be there again next morning.
I was picked up by Doebler the next morning and the new flat (that is the flat where this (Doebler's) girl is), where I met the Doctor again. We went over the previous night's conversation and he asked me if I had not except some names of Aerodromes and that all the information had been given to Celery as he (Major Ritter) had a very good memory. Then the talk went to conditions in England, back again to his friend (Tate, British double-cross cover-name; real name Wulf Schmidt) and I was questioned regarding Biscuit (real name Sam McCarthy) and the radio (the W/T set used), how it was possible that he could have brought it in, re sabotage and the Doctor (Major Ritter) enquired about my radio operator and about Summer (real name Gösta Caroli, Swedish; KV 2/60). I told him that Summer had been frightened, there had some enquiries and he had beat it. The Doctor (Major Ritter) said "That is O.K., anyhow because he has got seaman's papers and we shall see him again". Then he asked me regarding the Trawler in the North Sea (E201) (E201return) and told me that he had nothing figured out and said that I was in a very excellent position right now and that they had also had a man working on the inside in France in the War Department (in Vichy controlled France). He asked me again about Celery (Walter Dicketts) and I told him exactly that he was 95% as far as I knew, I was sure he was 95% for Germany. That was all for the meeting. I then was taken by Doebler and driven back to the rear of the rear of the (Metropole) hotel and I believe the Doctor (Major Ritter) left in a taxi from the flat.
KV 2/450-2, page 37 (H202) (H202return)
When I left Doebler he told me he would get in touch with me and I had to meet him again the same evening. I immediately went to the hotel and from there I went right up to the Consulate and saw Mr. King the Consul, and I asked him him if he could somehow find out what had happened to the "Cressado" as my secretary was on that boat and it was important for me to get in touch with him (thus he was a male) at once. Rumours were going around that the crew had been landed at Madeira, could he get in touch with somebody there. I wanted to get in touch with Celery (Walter Dicketts) (was the latter also on board the Cressado?) if in Madeira to tell him the exact situation as I was never sure of it that time.
I was met that evening again and was driven to Estoril and had a meeting with four other men and the Doctor (Major Ritter). This meeting was on sabotage only (strange as Major Ritter once was Referatsleiter I L whereas sabotage was the responsibility of Referat II) only and enquiries were then asked regarding (Miguel) Del Pozo (British cover-name Pogo). I was shown the pins, time clocks, detonators etc. and then driven back to the hotel at Lisbon.
I met the Doctor at the same flat the next morning. He outlined the new idea that he had regarding the transmitter, how to get in contact regarding the method to be used by a launch to the Channel Islands, as he was very upset because he had lost so many men and thought the launch idea was by far the safest way. I was given £10,000 and some American money. Codes and everything were gone into and rehearsed. That is the new code and the whole method procedure when I got back to England. The Doctor (Major Ritter) arranged with me that Celery (Walter Dicketts) and myself (Arthur Owens) should go to Germany as the Doctor thought he could not stay any longer for Celery. He had put off several appointments already and was going to do his best to put off more and wait another week if possible and it was arranged at that meeting with Doebler that Celery and myself was to go up to the Castle (was the German consulate) and get special passports.
I met Doebler for coffee on following days and went to the Embassy and saw name made invisible who I (AOB) think is the Security Service representative. I enquired about returning about returning and mentioned to him regarding things which I had been given, pins etc. (explosives provided in Estoril) I was ill at the time and in bed. If I though I could go out I saw people outside, at other times they came to my room. Nothing happened during those days → (page 37) → except contacts made at the Embassy.
KV 2/450-2, page 38
→ except contacts made at the Embassy. Then on the 23rd (February 1941) He (Walter Dicketts alias Celery) told me that he had arrived a day before (Walter came by boat via Gibraltar) and had come past the Police with the Chief Steward of the boat called Bert and had come immediately to the hotel to look for me as he thought I might have returned to England. He said I was very glad to see me (Arthur Owens) and was in a shocking condition. He (Walter Dicketts) said he was completely fed up and wanted to go into the bar for a drink. Instead of that I took him to my room. He was in a very bad mood and started to tell me what a very dirty trick it was that he had been sent on this boat, and that he was very fortunate to be alive. I told him that he had nothing to worry about as he had not been through half as much as I had been through. I said "I agree with you, it would have been far better if you (Walter Dicketts) had come on the plane if I had known". Then he talked about what was going to happen to me. I said, "In what way do you mean"? He said that Lily and the baby (Jean Louise) (again thanks to [19, page xii]) would be be held held as hostages, I would be shot when returned to England. I said "Do you mean to tell me that Robby (likely Arthur Owens' son Robert, with his former wife Jessie) told you a thing like that"? He said "I will tell you the story". I said "Alright, shoot".
"You remember that when I (Walter Dicketts) left the house a car was sent down for me and in the car was Stewart (Joch?). I was told by Stewart not to say anything but Burton (AOB: there once existed a Mr. Burton; who was the wireless operator in Owens in his prison in September 1939) was waiting down the road. I (Walter) was to meet Major Robertson (TAR) at Wood Lane or Green ? Station. I met him (TAR) and I was instructed by the Major (TAR) to find out everything I could about you (Arthur Owens), and to take all the numbers of all the money you ever gave me and make notes of everything you said". Walter Dicketts then went to Liverpool (the harbour town) by car with Burton (?) and Stewart (?). He said certain things that the barman told him at the hotel in Liverpool. Stewart and Burton were leady to lick (thrash) his boots and starting and started calling him "Sir". So I said, "It looks like a double-cross to me" He said, "What do you think"? I don't think Robby (Arthur Owens' son?) would be anything like that at all". He said to me (Arthur Owens), "Don't you think Robby (Owens' son?) is a bit scared by something". I told him that he was mentioned to me before and that I had told him in my room that was dangerous talk. He said "Don't you remember what happened in the club before we left, Robby said said 'there will be no censor there, you can say what you like as far as I am concerned and tell the Doctor (Major Ritter) I (Walter Dicketts) would like to meet him'". I said, "What do you think of the situation, you have arrived and I have instructions to give you money and → (page 39) → and whatever you want".
KV 2/450-2, page 39 (U213) ↓↓↓↓↓↓↓ (U213return)
→ and whatever you want". "Well", he said, "that is something like business. You know I went around and did what I could there in England, I had to do all the dirty work getting the passports, visas and everything and if you had not stayed at the hotel and I had not met you what could I wave done"? I (Arthur Owens) "You (Walter Dicketts) will find the people here quite different to that". I (Arthur Owens) took the money out of my case and showed him and told him (Walter Dicketts) and told him that that was what I had been given and that I had American money too equal to 50,000 dollars.
Then we had a telephone from Doebler. The idea of that was to meet the Doctor (Major Ritter) later. We went up to the flat with Doebler and I introduced Celery (Walter Dicketts) to him (Major Ritter). I told Celery in front of the Doctor that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew everything. "Well", he (Walter Dicketts?) said "that is plain sailing now" (or words of that effect). I had quite a lot of drink when I got there (in the room where Major Ritter was) and I do not remember everything that transpired in that building. The points I (Arthur Owens) remember are the Doctor asking Celery (Walter Dicketts) regarding the importance of the business papers he had, what his contacts were in Lisbon and that the Doctor (Major Ritter) understood from me that Celery (Walter Dicketts) had been a tremendous lot of important information to give him. Celery (Walter Dicketts) produced the business papers and mentioned the contact of (the remaining rest of the sentence had been made invisible)
The Doctor (Major Ritter) told him that (likely Robertson) though the name being made invisible was a member of the (??) British Intelligence and said something regarding I don't remember what it was. After that the next I heard was that Celery (Walter Dicketts) was giving giving dope (chickenfeed) regarding Aerodromes, the Airforce and the personnel of the Airforce and some people he would like to shoot at Kingsway. The next I knew was that Celery (Walter Dicketts) was told by the Doctor (Major Ritter) that the information he had was far to too important and that he would have come to Germany at once.
I went to Estoril in the evening with Celery (Walter Dicketts) and Doebler. I met the Doctor and the other people at the house, description of which I gave to your man in Lisbon (stationed at the Embassy) I cannot remember much about the meeting because I had had far too much to drink and slept in the car. I remember going out and having something to eat in Estoril and believe we went back to the house again.
The next morning Celery said he had some calls to → (page 40) → to make and would I come with him (Walter Dicketts) to the boat, the "Cressado".
KV 2/450-2, page 40
→ to make and would I come with him (Walter Dicketts) to the boat, the "Cressado" (likely the boat with which Walter arrived from England). He introduced me (Arthur Owens) to the men on the boat and we had some more drinks on the boat. The steward Bert (a Dutch or Belgium Christian name) was definitely anti-British and told me all about his trip and the way convoys were being sent out without any escort. Bert told me' that they don't give a damm about us in the country, if we were Germans we would have a proper escort but we had come down with a small sloop, which at the slightest sign of trouble, beat it''.
We then went to the English Bar from the boat, where we had some gin ... or something. From there we went by taxi to an office where Celery (Walter Dicketts) told me Mr. name made invisible was. (G202) (G202return) He was there sometime and when he came back to the taxi he got in and handed me a letter. He said, "I want you to open the letter just to show you that I am playing straight with the Doctor (Major Ritter)". In that letter was two other addressed to the banks. We had a meeting later in the day with the Doctor (Major Ritter) where final arrangements were made for both of us to leave for Germany. Celery (Walter Dicketts) gave the two letters to the Doctor (Major Ritter) and told him that they were sent from Celery's (Walter Dicketts') business. (Who was then the man who stepped into the car and gave the letter to Walter Dicketts; was he someone on behalf of M.I.5 via the British Embassy in Lisbon? (G202) (G202return) ) These letters were taken by the Doctor (Major Ritter) and photographed. During that meeting questions were asked regarding this Business banks and word made invisible again. The question of money came up. The Doctor asked me if I would give Celery (Walter Dicketts) some American money for his expenses to go on the trip to Madrid. I told him (Major Ritter) I (Arthur Owens) told him I had given him a 1000 escudos or so already, he said that was a pretty mean of me (Arthur Owens) not to give him more and he told me to give Celery (Walter Dicketts) at least 100 dollars for his trip, which I did. As far as I can remember this was the last meeting with the Doctor. (Please still bear in mind - that actually Major Ritter was no longer really engaged at Abwehrstelle Hamburg, but officially committed to General Rommel in North Africa)
During these meetings also Celery (Walter Dicketts) was asked about the British Intelligence man (pointing at Major T.A. Robertson). He (Walter Dicketts) told him that he had been employed by them regarding some work done I think in Germany. I am not clear about this. When we arrived back at the hotel, we were upstairs in the lounge when Celery said to me "You are 100% for the Doctor (Major Ritter) aren't you?" I (Arthur Owens) said, "Yes" why"? He said, "Because I am too". I would never make this trip unless I knew you were 100% fi=or him because I would not trust the people on the other side (different type of Germans?)". During the first meeting Celery (Walter Dicketts) had with the Doctor he Walter Dicketts) also mentioned regarding the situation, that when he got back he was going to get some kind of staff appointment with the R.A.F. where he could be of tremendous use on the inside. He (Walter Dicketts) told → (page 41) → the Doctor I was going to be shot.
KV 2/450-2, page 41
→ the Doctor I (Arthur Owens) was going to be shot. The Doctor looked at me and said, "What do you think of that?". I said, "I think this is eyewash, they're probably fooling Celery (Walter Dicketts), that's all. The Doctor then said to me, "What about you working in Germany and Celery (Walter Dicketts) coming back and you could meet him at the Channel Islands. I said "No, I have got Lily (Bade his girlfriend) and baby (Jean Louise) to go back to, I must got to go back. When I go back I am going to have so much dope that you are going to get a decoration and we shall be able to get Mrs. Kaye Dicketts Lily and the baby out of England without any difficulty. Several times before he left for Germany he (Walter Dicketts) asked me again regarding if I was 100% for Germany and the Doctor and he (Walter Dicketts) said he was, otherwise he would never have attempted a trip like this. He said to me, "I can go to the Embassy now and get them to wire England with information about you". I said, "You can do it if you want to but I am positive the Doctor (Major Ritter) is playing straight with me and you and we're both 100% for him. You have no doubts in your mind about making the trip?". He (Walter Dicketts) said, "None whatever, I am looking forward to it". That was the last meeting I had with them (Major Ritter and Walter Dicketts). Celery (Walter Dicketts) knew nothing about what I had done regarding the meeting at Estoril (H202) (H202return), as regards the sabotage equipment and I did not tell him or show him anything at all, he (Walter Dicketts) knew nothing at all about it. The only thing he did know about it was the money which I showed him on the day he arrived.
Regarding the question whether I told him the situation when he came in my room (at Hotel Metropole in Lisbon),, feel sure I did because the whole thing was mentioned at the first meeting with him (Walter Dicketts) and the Doctor (Major Ritter) and I had previously seen King (someone of the Embassy?) with the intention of trying to find out whether he was to let him (Major Robertson or the representative of the Secret Services) know. At least meeting, I think it was, the question regarding the launch came up and Celery (Walter Dicketts)
told me, that he knew how to handle easily the launch (sea going motorboat?) and could get to the Channel Islands very easily. (the aim was to establish communication between South Wales and the Channel Island de facto the Germans) Now that is about all.
(M208) ↓↓ (M208return)
The day before Celery left (for his trip via Madrid heading for Germany; a three weeks lasting commitment), Doebler came to the hotel and took us in the car to a Photographers Street which I can point out on the map and several photographs taken, the object was of that was for a (German) passport (for Walter Dicketts). He went up →(page 42) → with Doebler to the German Embassy (likely Consulate) which they call the Castle.
KV 2/450-2, page 42
→ with Doebler to the German Embassy (likely Consulate) which they call the Castle. He came back with his passport which he showed to me (Arthur Owens). The leaves (pages) inside the passport were green and his name was Walter Dunkler on the passport. I do not think we did anything more that day except shopping. celery said he had not any clothes and had to get some. I took him out shopping and paid for a new hat, a new coat and I believe some shirts. He also had to have a new case as his cases were not very clean. We bought him a new suitcase for his trip to Germany, Doebler was with him all the time. I think we had a meal then and at that time before Doebler left. I think Celery was instructed to be at the station at 6. o'clock in the morning. Previous to that, after the Doctor (Major Ritter) had left, I saw that Walter Dicketts was was the only man that was going to Germany as the passport was for him only. I asked Doebler what was the big idea, I thought it was to go, The Doctor said I was to go. He (Doebler?) said that he had had no instructions on that, only to get a passport for (Walter Dicketts) and that maybe it wouldn't be satisfactory for me to travel into Germany as well, as given "Remember I have put in my application for a return passage and if it comes any daym I shall have to take it, that's all". He said, "You can tell them (Owens' British Masters?) that you are waiting for big things happen and you can cancel it". (?)
In the meantime I got worried about the whole situation and I sent a wire to Lily (Bade, Owens' girlfriend) asking her to get in touch with Major Robertson (TAR), asking him to see about getting a passage quickly if required.
(AOB; it seems that we are jumping in time, because the story without a notice of Walter's returning from his German endeavour)
After giving final instructions regarding Walter Dicketts having to meet the car Doebler left us an Thursday evening be fore he left we were at the Arcadia. Celery (Walter Dicketts) was with the German girls there and he left, I should say about 11 - 12 p.m. (about midnight) and asked me if I was staying. I said I would stay as the cabaret didn't start till late and I would see off in the morning. I came back to the hotel (Metropole) between 4-5 a.m. and went up to my room. he had just called and was dressing. I was there about 10 minutes with him in the room and he said to me again, "Your are 100% for the Doctor (Major Ritter)", I said, "Yes, I am for the Doctor". "Well", he said "if it is not for you I should never do this and you won't double-cross me". and I said, "No, I have given you and the other people my word that I will see you go into Germany and come out". he said, "You won't double-cross me in any shape → (page 43) → or form".
KV 2/450-2, page 43
→ or form". I said, "No, I will see that you come out again". Once before sometime, I cannot remember, but at that meeting he (Walter Dicketts) said to me in the room, "You will mention nothing in England all this (likely pointing at his cabaret-girl affair) about all this" and I said, "No I shall say nothing". Then the matter of money came up and I told him he would get plenty of money for the trip and would be looked after and would given money there (in Germany). Celery (Walter Dicketts) said, "What are you going to do with the money if you get"?. I said, "I shall take it with me". C (Walter Dicketts) said, "Are you going to mention anything about the £10,000 you got"? I said, "I shall tell Robby (likely meant his son Robert) as soon as I get back".
I went downstairs and asked in the hall porter if he had made arrangements and was told that he had had sandwiches, whiskey etc. packed up.
I believe as I came from the Arcadia in the car up to the hotel, these two friends of his, the German girls (of the cabaret) wanted to come up and say goodbye to him before he left. They were in a taxi when he came downstairs, he came out and shook hands and kissed one of them.
I had a few minutes talk with him on the side walk at 6 o'clock and he said to me again, "You are 100% with me on this", I said, definitely". He said, "you won't double-cross or say anything about it". I said I would not. He said "Well, I am entirely in your hands". I shook hands with him and said, "You are a very brave man" and that was the last I saw of him. He went himself to the station where I understand he was met a Diplomatic Corps car, driven by this Doctor Rosseau? and they both drove to Madrid. Arrangements had been made for him to leave Madrid by airplane to Berlin (there existed up to March/April 1945 regular airline connections with Germany). He went to Berlin (this is what I was told after and what Doebler told me while he (Walter?) was away) and from Berlin he was going to Hamburg to meet the Doctor (Major Ritter). (AOB, I myself doubt that Walter Dicketts himself has met the Doctor (Major Ritter) there; because he had a new engagement in Rommel's DAK in North-Africa)
During the time (three weeks) C. (Walter Dicketts) was away I had sent this wire to Lily to ask Major Robertson about my passage because I was told at the shipping place that I might have to wait 2 or 3 months as they were not taking any ordinary → (page 44) → passengers.
KV 2/450-2, page 44
→ passengers. During that time I had a telephone call in the evening at the Metropole Hotel, asking me if I could come to the Embassy the next day. I said that I was not very well but I would try and get up. Ten minutes afterwards they phoned me again from the Embassy and asked if I could be there by 11 o'clock in the morning. That was phoned by a Miss Ferguson from the Embassy.
Whether it was the next day or the day after that I don't remember but I had another meeting at the Embassy with name made invisible and the same gentleman. I took the notes, the money and the sabotage material up to them and he was very interested and took some notes of the larger Bank of England bills with the object of tracing them. I believe at that meeting also, I gave them a description of a man who had brought very important papers from America on the American Export line ship, called the "Seborny", who had met accidentally with Doebler in a bar one evening. After that., whether its was that day or not, I met Doebler and had coffee with him him at the back of the hotel in a small coffee house. I had been continually asking Doebler up to that time where C. (Walter Dicketts) was and how he was getting along. He said he had no information at all and had asked him if he would send a cable to the Doctor (Major Ritter, likely no longer attached onto Ast Hamburg) saying that it was important he knew nothing of C. (Walter Dicketts), all he knew was that C (Walter Dicketts) had to go → (page 45)
→ to Berlin and from Berlin to Hamburg.
He told me that he had to meet a very important man from Hamburg that evening at 5 o'clock at the Imperial Tavern Bar and he said if he would have any information regarding C. (Walter Dicketts) that I was to meet him at another Coffee House around 5 o'clock. As soon as I left him I went back to the hotel, jumped in a taxi, went to the English Bar, walked around the block, got another taxi to the Embassy where I had previously phoned up name being made invisible, asking him as to pre-arrange plan, "How is my passage getting along?" That would convey to him that I had some important information to give him and he would have the other men there. I told him the situation that I had to meet Doebler at 4.50 p.m. and from there he was going across the street to the Imperial Tavern to meet this important man from Hamburg. I gave him a description of Doebler and asked him if he could have somebody down at the Imperial Tavern Bar to find out who this important man was and where he went. He said he did not think it could be done under 12 hours notice. I told him this was no use to me at all because things work quickly here. Quite many words had been made invisible. This is all I know about that. Whether they got the man or not I don't know. Tat covers up most of the things that went on in that time with the exception of the man at the Embassy working on the German girls.
This is important. During the first meeting with name made invisible, and the Doctor (Major Ritter), one of the first things that was said was the Doctor (Major Ritter) asking him regarding being with him and that, and (likely Walter Dicketts), said he was 100% for him and Germany and then Walter Dicketts said "I shall not sell my country and I am going to do everything in my power to change the system and get rid of certain people who are no use to the country and people who I do not like". But he did say that he would never sell the country, but everybody in the country. He went on to say that he only got £3 a week and now £10 a week a little extra money. The Doctor (Major Ritter) said that C. (Walter Dicketts) was taking a big risk for so little money and C. (Walter Dicketts) said that they would never pay anything away.
KV 2/450-2, page 46
Before I left I was out to dinner with one of the big assistants to one of the Generals and his name was (strangely made invisible by the British post-war censor, whom might not have understood the difference between a German and/or another person). He told me that he was responsible for the transport of troops to France at the beginning of the war and he also told me that he was just a bloody lieutenant now. C (Walter Dicketts) wanted to know if he could be bought. I said I didn't know if he could be bought but that he'd talk a hell of a lot if given enough to drink.
The Doctor gave back the bank letters to Celery (Walter Dicketts) and myself (we are in time again in Lisbon, before Walter Dicketts had left for his three weeks lasting Germany trip) and myself went to one bank and saw the Manager to get some dope off him but he had no information at all and was only interested in trading agreements and nothing more or less. He was having no connection with you (British?) people at all. I changed in the bank 100 dollars in small notes to give to Walter Dicketts for his trip to Madrid.
Everyday day I was getting more worried (now we jump in time during the three weeks Walter Dicketts spent in Germany) and during the conversation about the money and that at the Embassy, I told him (likely the Secret Service representative of S.I.S.) this man C (Walter Dicketts) I said that I had put up a dammed good tale to him and to all intents am 100% for Germany. The way that he spoke (S.I.S. man), I feel sure that he dare not say anything. The man at the Embassy said, "Between you and me, some of our people on the other side don't like that man (Walter Dicketts) and what is more, one of the German Intelligence in Lisbon (KOP office annex to the Embassy) gave the information out that a cable had been sent to Madeira asking their people there to trace a man who was on board the "Cressado" as this man was a Major in the R.A.F. his name believed to be Walter Dicketts and that he is one of our best men and had given valuable information", or something to that effect. I nearly fell through the floor, I was so surprised. He said, "If there is any intermediate danger you let me know and we will get you out at once". I said, "At the same time, I would sooner be out of here, but I have been asked to stay by Doebler, because there are big things going to happen". He said, "My own opinion is that that man was anxious to get to Germany and we shan't see him any more. Don't go for any rides in this town and watch your steps".
One evening around 7 o'clock, I was just going to leave the hotel when Doebler came up and I met him downstairs. He told me that C. (Walter Dicketts) was back in Madrid and would arrive at the hotel the next day at noon. He did not arrive, then some people in the hotel asked me to go to the Arcadia (the cabaret) with them → (page 47) → and I went down there at approximately 10.30 - 11 (p.m.) o'clock. (Walter Dicketts had an affair with one of the German members of the cabaret members) (M205) (M205return)
KV 2/450-2, page 47
(K208) ↓↓ (K208return)
→ and I went down there at approximately 10.30 - 11 (p.m.) o'clock. I think I was there about an hour when C (Walter Dicketts) walked in. He walked up to me and shook hands and said "I must see you at once, shall we get a table". We walked over to an empty table in the corner and he said to me, "I have had the most remarkable experience of any person". I (Arthur Owens) said, "Did everything go alright?". He (Walter Dickettes) said, "I have never seen an organisation, I have never seen such a country, I have never seen such people as in Germany". I said, "What do you mean?". Dicketts said, "I have got enough stuff here to blow the whole works. "I said, "In what way?". He said, "In papers and with documents". I told him that it was hardly the place to talk about that and he said that he was so excited that he must tell me a few things. I asked him if he had just arrived and he told me he had come with Doebler in the car. I said, Doebler told me last night that you would be in at noon". (why haven't the Servants in post-war days not added an simple indication?) Walter Dicketts said that the car had broken down several times. I asked if Doebler had met him and Walter Dicketts said, said that Doebler had met him at the Spanish Frontier. I asked if anybody else was with Doebler. He said, "A Spanish girl (likely Doebler's girlfriend) was with him. I have got a very good friend who was with me in Hamburg, we went all over and I want you to meet him, his name is "George" (Sessler; whom Arthur already knew - but under the cover-name: George Sinclair) I (Arthur Owens) over the situation calmly with C. (Walter Dicketts) and he said, "I have got a free hand, I have been allowed to go everywhere. I was told I would be watched for a few days and I have been everywhere. I have been down the docks in Hamburg, Blohm & Voss. I have got all the dope on the ship building, submarine production, aircraft production, the number of aircraft in commission in Germany and approximately the number of men they have. When I (Walter Dicketts) was in Berlin I stayed at the Adlon Hotel (still a famous 5 star Hotel, next to the Brandenburger Tor). I had a meeting with Doctor Schacht's secretary (An indication that the "Doctor" no longer was in Hamburg, but Dr. Schacht the was a friend of Major Ritter; Schacht once was the director of the German State Bank) and a meeting with Dr. Goebbels' secretary. They were tickled to death with the information I (Walter Dicketts) gave them regarding regarding improvement in their propaganda. When I (Walter Dicketts) arrived in Hamburg the Doctor was not there but arrived a few days afterwards.
"What is the for situation in Germany?"
Walter Dicketts "There is any amount of food there. There is nearly twice as much butter there as you get in England."
"There ought to be pinched from the countries. Were you there for any raids?"
Celery (Walter Dicketts) "Yes there was on 6 hours".
KV 2/450-2 , page 48 (Is now Arthur Owens interrogating Walter Dicketts or do we encounter a free range of queries in a different context?)
"Where were you?"
C. (Walter Dicketts) "I was in shelter with some staff officers".
"Is there damage in Hamburg".
C. "The only place I saw damage was a couple of buildings in St. Pauli".
"Were you in an air raid shelter for 6 hours, and no damage?".
C. "No, none. Bombs dropped in the country the opposite side of the river to Blohm & Voss."
"How many machines went over?
C. "About 60".
"What is the matter with our people?"
C. "It is perfectly true, there is no damage and no damage in Berlin".
Some American told me approximately where the damage was and C. had been there and said there was no damage.
"Any instructions for me from the Doctor ".
C. "Yes, the Doctor (Major Ritter) gave me £200 and some American money and I am to call on you for as money I need".
When I met George (George or Georg Sessler, alias George Sinclair) I told him about this and he said that the Doctor gave C (Walter Dicketts) £450 and some American money and that I wasn't to let C (Walter Dicketts) to take for a ride. (AOB, in the broad field of the foregoing interrogations a picture appeared: that Mr Dicketts was not a gentleman, and tended to prevail resentment, against Arthur Owens) He had £450 and some American money and had spent nothing since Hamburg. In Hamburg C (Walter Dicketts) brought a coat and something else. he bought some dope in Hamburg which he showed me, some 'veronal' or something, and when we were in the English bar he took out a little bag, took the dope out of it and throw the bag on the floor (such an attitude may reflect what is within a person doing so). On the bag was some name of a drug store (Apotheke) in Hamburg. That night we didn't bother any more and went back to the hotel (Hotel Metropole). Those were the only instructions the Doctor (Major Ritter) had given C (Walter Dicketts) to give me.
KV 2/450-2, page 49
During the next day he told me that he had got a tremendous lot of important stuff and he would be given a decoration when I went back and I told him I did not want decorations. He said, "It is advisable you take it, you will be immune from any Police interference and you can go practically where you like". What the contents of the papers were I don't know, he never showed me. The only thing that he showed me he brought to my room - a book on Polish atrocities which had been given to him in Hamburg (maybe about the Bromberg accident about September 1939) Office opposite the Alster Pavillion (in the General Knochenhauerstrasse). I (Arthur Owens) can get no information at all about what had happened in Hamburg. I think George (Sessler) (his alias George Sinclair) is a bit jealous of name made invisible (Walter?) as there were a lot of officials in the room with the Doctor (Major Ritter yet still Referetasleiter I L, Ast Hamburg; though already designated for a North Africa engagement at Rommel's DAK) and while he was talking to him, the Doctor sent them all out of the room while he carried on a long conversation with C (Walter Dicketts). What he did in Germany I (Arthur Owens) have no idea whatever. C (Walter Dicketts) said he was going to get a staff job when he got back and he and I were supposed to go and see Winston Churchill and finish the war for which I am going to get a decoration and he is going to be in such a big position and he is going to take his wife, (Arthur Owens' girlfriend Lily and (her) baby to Germany.
He (Walter Dicketts) and I (Arthur Owens) went to the Embassy and met name made invisible and your (S.I.S/M.I.5). Walter Dicketts said, "I have got some most important information which I must get back to England at once, can you arrange the trip etc.". There is one thing I (Arthur Owens) should like to find out Mr. C (Walter Dicketts). The Captain of the "Cressado" (the name of the ship with which Walter Dicketts travelled from Liverpool to Gibraltar and thereafter to Lisbon) went to the Consul and told him that you (Walter Dicketts) had said that a telephone message had come from Headquarters in London asking the Steward of the boat to look after you (Walter Dicketts) told them on the boat that you were on a very important government mission and you were to be well looked after". C (Walter Dicketts) said that a message had come from Headquarters to ask them to look after him on the boat.
C (Walter Dicketts) again went to the Embassy and said he had taken a lot of papers up there which had been sealed and would be sent to the foreign Office direct. (normally handled by means of a so-called diplomatic bag). he said that they had told him that if it was not possible to get some seats on the plane, they would have a special airplane to take him (them) back to England. That is how important the information was he had.
On the Sunday before we left I went out to Estoril with some friends and C (Walter Dicketts) came along too. He went up to see this → (page 50) → Doctor Rossin (?) of the Diplomatic Service in Lisbon who lived at Estoril and came down to the Atlantic Hotel.
KV 2/450-2, page 50
→ Doctor Rossin (?) of the Diplomatic Service in Lisbon who lived at Estoril and came down to the Atlantic Hotel. He told me that he (Walter Dicketts) wanted to come with him (Dr. Rossin?) at once. I (Arthur Owens) up to this man's house, was introduced to him (Dr. Rossin) bur C (Walter Dicketts) had a drink with him and stayed there 10 minutes approximately. This man (Dr. Rossin; a name in Germany not uncommon) invited me to dinner as he had arranged a big dinner that night for C (Walter Dicketts). I told him I had some friends here and thought it was possible. I went back to the Atlantic Hotel and in the early evening drove back to Lisbon, I did not go near Dr. Rossin's place, The next time I saw C (Walter Dicketts) he told me he had had some very important papers through the Diplomatic Service in Germany and had instructions to take them up to Doctor Rossin. The people were disappointed I did not go to dinner as he had said he had been listening to speeches by Roosevelt, Churchill and Hitler which had all been taken on a private recording machine in that house.
When I met C. (Walter Dicketts) at the (cabaret) Arcadia that night after his return from Germany (K208) (K208return), he told me that he had had a very very long trip and had flown approximately 1400 miles. I should judge that would be approximately the distance between Berlin and Madrid (theoretically a Fw 200 Condor aircraft could manage it, but a stop somewhere in between was quite regular). At the same time he told me he had stayed in Stuttgart and I believe it was the next day he met a lady in the hotel and spoke to her about ¼ hr. and said to me that he was very upset because this lady travelled with George (Sessler) and himself on the train and she knew that C. (Walter Dicketts) and George (Sessler; alias George Sinclair) travelled on diplomatic passports. C (Walter Dicketts) left Lisbon with an ordinary (German) passport (on behalf of Walter Dunkler) (M208) (M208return) He said, I have to spend most of my time now with this lady trying to square things up (including his hormones?)". He took her to the Arcadia (cabaret); the next day she was ill, he took her flowers to the Hotel Frankfurt where she had a very cheap room. She was drawing money from him money from the Repatriation Office in Lisbon. In the first place should could not do that. He gave the woman 200 escudos because she was broke. The whole thing came back to me at once. If C (Walter Dicketts) had come by airplane to Madrid how could he have travelled with this lady in the train (heading for Lisbon) and what was she doing in the 1st class carriage if she had no money. However, I asked C (Walter Dicketts) about this woman and he told me that she had come from France and was going to get married and that she was English. I said, "It seems extremely strange to me travelling on a train with you and George (Sessler) on a Diplomatic passport and she has no money and comes to Lisbon without money and draws it from the Repatriation Office. Are you clear → (page 51) →about this woman.
KV 2/450-2, page 51
→about this woman. Don't go and get yourself into trouble".
When we were going to leave the airport (Lisbon airport heading for Bristol) I said, "Look, there is an Italian plane". He said, "I don't like the pilots, when I was on the plane the pilot was looking out of the door and talking to people". Where could have been on an Italian plane from Madrid (?).
C (Walter Dicketts) was in a pretty vile (awful) mood and said, "I cannot understand this business over there, a chap like sitting in an office and here I am on this bloody job risking his life. I don't know what it was but I think he was a little bit in ...(?) with Robby (likely ment Arthur Owens adult son Robert). It may have been something I said but for a long time he never shook hands with me. I don't know what I did, I probably stepped on his corns somewhere. Another thing I cannot understand you know, Robby (Owens' son Robert) said to you (Walter Dicketts) in front of me at the last meeting, tell the Doctor (Major Ritter) I (Arthur Owens' son Robert). He (Robert) may think that the war is going to be over. Don't you remember he also said 'Where you are going there is no censor (AOB: damm there was!) and you can say what you like'. Look to the position he (Robert's father Arthur Owens) has put me in now. If I go back to England and say that, where is Robby". I told him not to talk like that about people and he said that it gave him extra power I said, "I have told you the situation, I have told you I am not Hitler, I am not telling you who I am, you know the situation between me (Arthur Owens) and the Doctor (Major Ritter) and yourself and it is up to you entirely, whatever you want to do". C (Walter Dicketts) said, "I have never double-crossed you at any time, you are 100% for the Doctor (Major Ritter) aren't you?" I (Arthur Owens) said that of course I was.
Walter Dicketts said, "I have seen so many things, I know exactly what is going to happen and when the time comes it is going to happen and I want to be assured that there is going to be no trouble when we get back in England". I (Arthur Owens) said. "Robby gave me (Arthur Owens) his word that whatever happened while I was away he would look after them". C (Walter Dicketts) said, "I am not sure, I don't like that little fellow (Robert) now that they call Ron. I think they will probably some mucky (muddy) business with the girls (Kaye Walter's wife and Lily Bade Arthur's girlfriend)". I (Arthur Owens) said that Lily was quite capable of handling the situation. C (Walter Dicketts) said, "If there is any mucky business, God help them. When I get to Bristol (their place of landing and re-entering England), if there is any trouble there, I will immediately call the R.O. (?) and start things going". C. told me that the → (page 52)
→ Doctor is a man that in Germany today is responsible to nobody except Hermann Goering and what he told me is absolutely 100%. The Doctor (Major Ritter) told C (Walter Dicketts) that he could give a description of him and everybody else he met in Germany. Who else C (Walter Dicketts) met besides George (Sessler alias George Sinclair) I don't know, he never told me except his two secretaries.
C. (Walter Dicketts) said to the Doctor (Major Ritter) "I have got all the routes of the convoy system, how they are protected and everything else". I (Arthur Owens) said, "Look here, C. (Walter Dicketts), I know the situation with you right now, I know which way you are leaning but one thing for me, please don't give away the routes of the convoys or anything about them, because don't forget these poor devils are risking their lives for about ½ what you are getting". C (Walter Dicketts) gave his word that he would say nothing. A week afterwards 154,000 tons of shipping were sunk.
Major Robertson (M.I.5. and Arthur Owens case officer as well as Walter's) asked me the other day if I had seen a certain case. I had never seen it. C (Walter Dicketts) had only two cases when he left and I didn't see any cases when he returned, but he certainly did not take with him from the hotel to the aerodrome unless he put in the other case, it would fit into the new case which I bought him (Arthur bought it, in Lisbon, before Walter left for his, eventually, three weeks lasting trip to Germany). His baggage was not looked at at the aerodrome, mine was.
The Doctor said he was dissatisfied with the way he had been losing men. (AOB: ment is the way agents dropped on England's soil disappeared. The first agents, like in the Seeloewe context (https://www.cdvandt.org/seeloewe-espionage.htm) and later Jacobs (https://www.cdvandt.org/kv-2-24-27-jakobs.htm) and others they all had been caught, but in first instance not yet turned within a double-cross schematic, like Tate (Wulf Schmidt) and Summer (Gösta Caroli), albeit it unknown on the German side employed in the British XX context). The next day day he said, "We are in a dammed nice position right now (pointing at Arthur Owens' double-cross engagements in the context of M.I.5) and as things stand you can take anything back to England without any difficulty. I have lost too many men, I don't know what happened to them but they went over there and they disappeared. The only satisfactory way was is by launch (motor boat of some speed between South of Wales and the Channel Islands) Is C (Walter Dicketts) capable of doing what he tells me (Major Ritter)". I (Arthur Owens) said, "He is quite capable of doing it. there is a launch he can hire called Dart". When C (Walter Dicketts) came back from Germany (arriving in Lisbon again) he said, "The most important thing to do is to buy this launch and I can have as much money as I like. This is important. Another thing bear in mind, don't forget that I can take Mrs. C (Kaye Dicketts) and Lily (Bade Arthur Owens girlfriend) and the baby (Lily and Arthur's daughter Jean Louise) and yourself out of if there is a slightest bit of trouble and we have got the boat always ready".
While C. (Walter Dicketts) was away the "Cressado" had evidently sailed to Gibraltar (from Liverpool) and had come back from Gibraltar to Lisbon. The (Steward) fellow Bert and another man came up to the Hotel (Metropole) to see me, I was in the bar. I didn't recognise him till he told me → (page 53)
→ that I had met him on the "Cressado". he asked me if I would have a drink as they were leaving at 4 o'clock. Bert asked if I had heard from Walter, and if he was going to be away long (Walter's eventually three weeks lasting trip). I told him that C (Walter Dicketts) had come up to the mines in the North of the country. When C returned I told him that Bert had come up to see me. C (Walter Dicketts) returned I told him that Bert had come up to see me. C said, "Did he get back to from Gibraltar, he was going to join a convoy there. I would like to have seen Bert, he would be dammed useful man for us, he could do a hell of a lot on that boat going backwards and forwards all the time".
KV 2/450-2, page 54 (minute 1108a)
Conference 10th April, 1941.
(G.M.L. (Liddell), D.G. White, T.A. Robertson, J.H. Marriott, J.C. Masterman)
Action with regard to the agents was decided upon. It was agreed that the only safe course was to assume that the Doctor (Major Ritter) knew about our control of agents and that he probably knew as much about Snow (Arthur Owens) or Celery (Walter Dicketts). On this assumption Snow can be of little if any further use to us, but the fact that the Doctor (Major Ritter) has given him £10,000 and the explosives shows that he wishes himself to keep the party alive. The reason or reasons for this may be a wish to maintain his own prestige, a wish to use Snow as paymaster or for contacts in the event of invasion and the belief that he can learn a great deal by studying information which we allow to go over, because it will tell him what we regard as unimportant and what we regard as important (through-out the war this latter aspect played a significant role). The fact that he (Major Ritter) wishes to keep the party alive is a strong argument for closing down on it and it is also desirable that we should put our onus (responsibility) of ending it upon him (Major Ritter). Snow (Arthur Owens) will therefore be informed tomorrow that we propose to send a message on Saturday to the effect that his health and nerves have collapsed and that he must throw in his hand, he will ask what he is to do with the transmitters and with his explosives. The advantages gained from this course will be:
1. We shall be able to observe Snow's reactions. which may help us to decide how far he was involved himself on the other side and,
2. We shall be able to watch the Doctor's reactions, since he must either himself break up the party by refusing to answer or send some sort of reply and instructions to Snow (Arthur Owens). If Snow accepts the decision without comment or suggested alternative, we shall then tell him that we believe Celery's story, that Snow never warned him, which we regard as a foolish and treacherous act on Snow's (Arthur Owens') part. It is possible that this statement may elicit (provoke) from Snow (Arthur Owens) from Snow further accusations and possible information about Celery (Walter Dicketts).
KV 2/450-2, page 55
Tate (Wulf Schmidt) meantime will go over with renewed and urgent requests for money, he will explain that he cannot send and valuable information because his money is running so short that he dare not spend it on travelling about to procure information. If he is not helped at once he must throw up the sponge. Here again we shall be able to decide according to the Doctor's (Major Ritter's) reply, what is to be done with Tate (Wulf Schmidt) and the Doctor (Major Ritter) will have the responsibility (with the consequent loss of prestige to him) of breaking up the party.
3. Celery (Walter Dicketts) We shall hold Celery in the play until we have more information through Snow and Tate (Wulf Tate had a rather good friendship with Major Ritter; alias the Doctor). Celery (Walter Dicketts) will write a letter which will be send to Lisbon as though it had been carried over by a ship's steward or seaman, in which he will say that he is trying hard to go over to Lisbon again, according to his instructions, but that is becoming more difficult to obtain a seat in the plane and he cannot be sure when he will be able to obtain one. In the meantime he would welcome further instructions if they can be conveyed to him.
The future control of Snow (Arthur Owens) and Celery (Walter Dicketts) was not finally decided on. There was general agreement that they would have to he kept under close supervision and that it might be necessary to shut (putting him in what they designated as a goal) Snow (Arthur Owens) up or alternatively to remove him from the country. The reports from Lisbon on his activities there are urgently needed before a decision on this point can be arrived at.
KV 2/450-2, page 56 (minute 1105a)
I saw Snow yesterday at my Club in reply to an urgent request from him saying that he had some important information to give. Captain Masterman and Reed were present. Briefly Snow's (Arthur Owens') trouble was this:
From remarks which have been made by the barman of the "Otter" public house to Mr. Reed it appears that the barman and a number of customers have formed the impression that the people living at Homefields are engaged on work for the British Intelligence Service. It is also apparently known, according to the barman, that there is a wireless transmitting set at the address.
Snow (Arthur Owens) was in a frightful state about this. He said that the game was up and that he and all the people working with him were blown sky high, and that his life was in jeopardy as well as the life of his wife and child (Jean Louise).
I was very strongly of the impression that the whole of the story was Snow's (Arthur Owens') point of view was in the nature of a smoke screen. No doubt the facts are correct, but Snow has as usual embellished (overstated) them. An exceedingly strong argument was put forward by Captain Masterman to the effect that if, as Snow (Arthur Owens) says the Germans know all about his activities and that he is in fact connected know all about his activities and that he is in fact connected with the British Intelligence he has not been in a better position for some 18 months past, and that if this fact is correct, it is most unlikely that the Germans will bother to send over one of their agents for the express purpose of bumping (bouncing) off.
It was agreed that Snow's action rather supports hypothesis one. He was sent home still protesting, but I feel that he will very soon forget about this.
6.4.41. Sgd. T.A. Robertson (TAR) Major
AOB: it still is apparent that they did not realise - that the fact Arthur Owens got access to a priority seat in the airplane which brought him to Lisbon; which, of course, was noticed by the German Intelligence and this was only possible by an intervention on behalf of a British Governmental entity; hence the Secret Service. It once had been noticed by Arthur Owens in an earlier stage of the ongoing retrospectives. It simply proved to be impossible for them to acknowledge their misjudging and the consequences on the long term.
Apparently their mood being: a Splendid Organisation does not make mistakes!
KV 2/450-2, page 57 (minute 1104a)
I saw Dr. name made invisible but we have to think of a doctor on behalf of M.I.5). - yesterday and was actually in his consulting room when he put his primary questions to Snow (Arthur Owens). Mrs. Snow (AOB, most unlikely his legal former wife; but consider it was Arthur's girlfriend Lily Bade). Snow made a terrific song and dance about his various ailments saying that he was sick and had pain in his left side and had been told by his local Doctor (G.P.) that he was suffering from a weak hart, He was then examined by the Doctor and during that time Mrs. Snow (Lily Bade?) and I (TAR) left the room. When we returned the Doctor said that he did not think that Mrs. Snow (Lily Bade?) need to worry too much about Snow's (Arthur Owens') health but that she ought to try and persuade him to cut down his drink (one bottle of brandy a day). He said that he would arrange for an X-ray of Snow's (Arthur Owens') stomach to be take either at St. Thomas's or at Weybridge Hospital.
After Snow (Arthur Owens) and Mrs. Snow (Lily Bade) had left I waited behind and had a long and interesting talk with Dr. name made invisible, who told me immediately that he thought that Snow was a malingerer (timewaster) and and that there was really nothing wrong with him at all. He said he thought that Snow had the constitution of an ox if in fact he had been drinking as much as he said. He said that possibly his physical condition was that of a man of 52, Snow (Arthur Owens) being 42. He further went on to say that in his opinion Snow (Arthur Owens) was mentally absolutely sound but very sly (crafty or clever) indeed. he himself would not trust him further than he can see him. I thanked Dr. name made invisible very much and asked him if he would keep me informed as to the results of the X-ray photographs. He also said that his opinion Dr. name made invisible the local Doctor (his G.P.) should have a word said to him and he has arranged to do so as soon as possible. he considers that the local Doctor (his G.P.) had had his leg pulled, he considered it would be a great mistake and I agreed for either of them to tell Snow (Arthur Owens) that they saw nothing wrong with him as it would merely mean Snow (Arthur Owens) would go to another Doctor.
After this I took Snow (Arthur Owens) to lunch with me at the club and gave him strict instructions that he was to write out and let me have by Monday at the latest a complete summary in detail of his visit to Lisbon paying particular attention to dates. (AOB Please, remember: (N209) (N209return))
B.2.a Sgd. T.A. Robertson (TAR)
KV 2/450-2, page 66 (minute 1097a)
Note on the interrogation of Snow.
On 31.3.41. I (likely Mr. J.H. Marriott) I started to interrogate Snow (Arthur Owens). Having regard to the absolute inconsistency between the accounts of Celery (Walter Dicketts) and Snow (Arthur Owens) (AOB: please bear in mind that there existed a great animosity from Mr. Dicketts, with his criminal background, towards Arthur Owens. During their interrogation of Walter Dicketts (Celery) it became quite clear that when Arthur declared X Walter replied it had been Y vice verse (P210) ↑↑ (P210return) ) as to their reception by the Doctor (Major Ritter), and to Snow's (Arthur Owens') complete inability to tell anything like a connected story, I (Mr. Marriott, or was it Mr. Robertson?) directed my attention only to an attempt to establish the three following points.
1. What happened when Snow (Arthur Owens) at his first meeting with the Doctor (Major Ritter) (AOB, a completely incorrect query and sentence, as Arthur Owens knew and frequently met with the Doctor since about 1936) confessed that he was under control we having "walked in on him" at the beginning of December 1940. (AOB, again incorrect: as at first Major Ritter (the Doctor) confronted Arthur Owens with the notice that they the Germans know already for some time, that he is under the control of the British Secret Service!) (AOB, again evident: but systematically ignored their evident mistake that Arthur Owens gained an airline seat - albeit that there existed a waiting list; the only way to get a priority seat was by the intervention of a Governmental entity!)
2. Whether he told Celery (Walter Dicketts) exactly what had happened at his own first (Lisbon 1941) meeting with the Doctor (Arthur Owens), and if so when hw had told him i.e. whether before or after Celery (Walter Dicketts) first meeting with the Doctor (why not considering his meeting up with Walter Dicketts in particular first?), and if so when he had told him, i.e. whether before or or after Celery's (Walter Dicketts') first meeting with the Director (Major Ritter) and if after that meeting before or after Celery's visit to Germany.
3. What (if any) story he and Celery had concocted for Major Robertson's benefit as to their doings in Lisbon.
How far, if at all, I succeeded in getting the answers to any of these questions appears from the short-hand (steno) note. but it is perhaps worth while setting out the reasons for their importance since the extent to which Snow (Arthur Owens) himself is able to give the answers really are) is the measure of his credibility as a witness on other matters connected with his visit.
1. If Snow's (Arthur
Owens') account of his first (AOB:
first is incorrect,
they should have expressed it:
first meeting in Lisbon;
because Arthur Owens dealt with Major
meeting with the Doctor (Major Ritter)
is accurate it is to my mind absolutely incredible that the Doctor should not
have pursued the most exhaustive enquiries as to precisely what happened when
the British Intelligence authorities walked in and caught him red-handed, and
yet according to Snow this aspect of his case was only discussed at two meetings
with the Doctor one lasting 2½ hours and the other lasting one hour. In 3½ hours
therefore the Doctor had not only learnt the story about our discovery of, and
turning round of, Snow (Arthur Owens)
but he weighted up the situation, decided that notwithstanding everything he
could still use Snow (Arthur Owens)
and giving him
£10,000 and a new code.
The only material upon which the Doctor (Major
Ritter) had to
go was the fact that a number of men "medium English people, thin faces and I
think policemen among them" walked into Snow's house, "went right through it and
the furniture", found the radio transmitter and the code, questioned Snow
"for several hours" and eventually sent him back home to transmit with a man
watching him. (AOB,
one has to read Major
as to understand
the background intentions of Major Ritter.
might have influenced Ritter's mood was this long standing contact with Owens,
since about 1936!
We should also
not forget -
Ritter was actually at the end of his career in Hamburg,
as he was about
to gain a position in Rommel's North Africa campaign)
KV 2/450-2, page 67 (J228) (J228return)
The Doctor (Major Ritter) was told that Snow couldn't remember the names of any of the people who questioned him and that he had no idea of how we performed the remarkable feat (achievements) of illicit wireless detection. Snow's explanation of all this is that the Doctor "trusts him 100%" (AOB, is fully in accordance with Ritter's book of 1972: Deckname Dr. Rantzau ), and is prepared to rely on the mere statement by him that things are alright. This is found difficult to believe, but it is, I suppose, just possible.
(a) The fact that he did not tell Celery (Walter Dicketts) until after he met the Doctor or perhaps until after he came back from Germany, and that he is ashamed of this.
(b) The fact that the discovery was never made (that it was made is acknowledged within Major Ritter's post war book of 1972: Deckname Dr. Rantzau ) , that therefore he never told Celery for the very good reason that there was nothing to tell him, and that the whole story has been invented by him.
If the answer is (a) he would surely now maintain that he told Celery as soon as he arrived in Portugal. In fact even though his attention has been directed to the importance of this point he is balance inclining the story that he told Celery after and not before the meeting. This story seems to me almost impossible.
3. Snow (Arthur Owens) only produces the story that Celery and he had an arrangement not to tell Major Robertson (Nowhere found in Arthur Owens report!) that the party's connection with us was known to the Doctor right at the end of the interrogation and then only after the idea was put into his head by me (Mr. Marriott). If this story is true then Celery (Walter Dicketts) and and he (Arthur Owens) must have come to some such an arrangement and it would have been the first thing that he (Walter Dicketts?) would have told us.
For all the above reasons I am satisfied that Snow is lying and that he never disclosed to the Doctor his connections with us. I should add that his demeanour (conduct) under interrogation conveys exactly the opposite impression and that he gives every appearance of speaking the truth, which → (page 68) → indeed I feel he really things he is doing. I am more than ever convinced that Snow's (Arthur Owens') is a case not for the security Service, but for a brain specialist .
KV 2/450-2, page 68
KV 2.450-3, page 71
I saw Snow (Arthur Owens) name of place made invisible on Friday 28th March 1941. Mr. Marriott was with me (TAR) and Miss I.E. Marsden was taking down the conversation on a Stenotype machine.
Our conversation started at about 10.15 a.m. and continued until 1.30 p.m. Mr. Marriott and Miss Marsden had lunch in the flat with Snow (Arthur Owens) and Mr. Marriott continued his discussion immediately after lunch. Miss Marsden being present. I returned to the flat at 4 o'clock, asked Snow (Arthur Owens) a few more questions and then decided to pack up the party and send Snow (Arthur Owens) down to the Ottersaw by car. He was taken to Wood Lane station where Mr. Mills picked him up in his car and took him home.
Snow (Arthur Owens) was not well. He had been ill in Lisbon for some time, however, he bore no resentments whatever to his treatment at the Air Port (at Bristol) (Y219) (Y219return) on his arrival in this country (they arrived from Lisbon). I (T.A. Robertson) for my part formed the opinion that he was very forthcoming about his information but there were definite periods when he gave me the impression that he was holding back. This was especially evident during the very first part of the conversation when he introduced the fact that he had been brule. We made it our business to ask him as few questions as possible, and the following notes are made for the purpose of assisting us in further interrogations and the various points which want clarifying.
After due consideration of the statement it was decided that we should have to go through the whole thing, point by point, and get Snow (Arthur Owens) to give us a coherent story. It was decided that we should attack him on Monday, 31st March at 11 o'clock.
30.3.1941. Sgd. T.A. Robertson Major.
KV 2/451-1, page 1
Papers from the
Snow Case (Arthur Owens)
* Selected papers most likely implied: that the bulk of materials had been weeded as well. Selections were commenced under a guideline what should be considered relevant, but what were their considerations?
As again the size of this current html webpage is approaching 1 MB; I have to create next an
Where we are jumping in the post war years episode.
Back to the end of the foregoing page 3
To be continued in due course
By Arthur O. Bauer